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Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me

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What is the best libertarian ideology?

Poll ended at Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:00 pm

Classical liberalism
32
48%
Minarchism
6
9%
Anarcho-capitalism
3
5%
Bakunin's anarchism
5
8%
Anarcho-syndicalism
11
17%
Other/Anarcho-statism
9
14%
 
Total votes : 66

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New haven america
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Posts: 38831
Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:24 am

The Reformed American Republic wrote:

Not really what the first amendment is for, but ok.

Yes, it actually is.
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Kedri
Diplomat
 
Posts: 961
Founded: May 25, 2012
Capitalizt

Postby Kedri » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:08 am

Idzequitch wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:So... what is the libertarian belief on “unity”? The Left talks “left unity” and the Right talks “right unity”, but where do you, as mostly right-libertarians, see potential allies?

Unity? Psshh. We prefer to antagonize one another with purity tests. You don't pass the test, you don't get in the club. The club also only has like 17 people in it because the test is so rigorous. This Also helps explain why libertarianism never really manages to take off in America.

I only consider myself a libertarian sympathizer myself, as I'm one of the sort that doesn't pass the purity tests.


Same here, but it's mainly because of my stance on borders and I do think there are instances where capital punishment is appropriate, albeit I support reforming the system so that only particularly heinous and unrepentant criminals get it if there is sufficient evidence, and it should be a last resort.

I'm not a hawk when it comes to foreign policy, but I'm not a non-interventionist either. I think there are times where it is appropriate or just to intervene (if some dictator is practicing genocide, for example.) Serve justice, but don't necessarily police the world.

Those issues are the main reasons why I consider myself a conservative rather than a libertarian.
Last edited by Kedri on Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Kedri is a nation of 18th century pirates who know water-bending. Throw in some steampunk, as well. Tech level is PT/FanT.
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Picairn
Minister
 
Posts: 2232
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:25 am

Kedri wrote:Same here, but it's mainly because of my stance on borders and I do think there are instances where capital punishment is appropriate, albeit I support reforming the system so that only particularly heinous and unrepentant criminals get it if there is sufficient evidence, and it should be a last resort.

I'm not a hawk when it comes to foreign policy, but I'm not a non-interventionist either. I think there are times where it is appropriate or just to intervene (if some dictator is practicing genocide, for example.) Serve justice, but don't necessarily police the world.

Those issues are the main reasons why I consider myself a conservative rather than a libertarian.

Ah, a political pragmatist. Wish there were more of them in the current crazy political climate.
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Elwher
Senator
 
Posts: 4689
Founded: May 24, 2012
Corporate Bordello

Postby Elwher » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:13 am

Kedri wrote:So, uhhh... What are y'all's thoughts on open borders?


If a true libertarian state were to exist, where people rise and fall on their own merits without government handouts, then I would support open borders. You cannot have welfare and open borders without bankrupting the state, and in turn, the taxpayers.
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Ambrose Bierce

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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28392
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:09 am

Elwher wrote:
Kedri wrote:So, uhhh... What are y'all's thoughts on open borders?


If a true libertarian state were to exist, where people rise and fall on their own merits without government handouts, then I would support open borders. You cannot have welfare and open borders without bankrupting the state, and in turn, the taxpayers.

You…realize states can’t go bankrupt in the modern day, right? Assuming a fiat currency that isn’t tied to anything, and that any debt owned by that state is denominated in its own currency, a state is about as likely to go bankrupt as the Earth is to fall out of its orbit.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
ni dio, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo

A Republic...if you can keep it.

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Nuroblav
Minister
 
Posts: 2121
Founded: Nov 13, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nuroblav » Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:45 am

Kedri wrote:So, uhhh... What are y'all's thoughts on open borders?

Basically what Kowani said: invisible lines in earth should go bye bye.
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:So... what is the libertarian belief on “unity”? The Left talks “left unity” and the Right talks “right unity”, but where do you, as mostly right-libertarians, see potential allies?

Not a right libertarian but I disagree with the unity concept in terms of entire sides of the spectrum, especially considering the amount of variation in ideologies on any given side.
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Economic Left/Right: -6.38, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.03

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Proctopeo
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11801
Founded: Sep 26, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Proctopeo » Mon Jun 29, 2020 11:33 am

Kedri wrote:So, uhhh... What are y'all's thoughts on open borders?

Good, but only remotely practical in a perfect world. In an imperfect world, you need to, at least, screen out the worst eggs.
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Taihei Tengoku
Senator
 
Posts: 4851
Founded: Dec 15, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Taihei Tengoku » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:39 am

Open borders are probably awful, but not for the reason you think it is, and it is already here, but not in the way you think it is.
REST IN POWER
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Elwher
Senator
 
Posts: 4689
Founded: May 24, 2012
Corporate Bordello

Postby Elwher » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:53 am

Kowani wrote:
Elwher wrote:
If a true libertarian state were to exist, where people rise and fall on their own merits without government handouts, then I would support open borders. You cannot have welfare and open borders without bankrupting the state, and in turn, the taxpayers.

You…realize states can’t go bankrupt in the modern day, right? Assuming a fiat currency that isn’t tied to anything, and that any debt owned by that state is denominated in its own currency, a state is about as likely to go bankrupt as the Earth is to fall out of its orbit.

Not bankrupt in a legal sense, I agree that is not possible; but bankrupt as in not being able to maintain necessary services and a worthless currency.
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Ambrose Bierce

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Prizea
Diplomat
 
Posts: 727
Founded: May 31, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Prizea » Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 pm

Kowani wrote:
Elwher wrote:
If a true libertarian state were to exist, where people rise and fall on their own merits without government handouts, then I would support open borders. You cannot have welfare and open borders without bankrupting the state, and in turn, the taxpayers.

You…realize states can’t go bankrupt in the modern day, right? Assuming a fiat currency that isn’t tied to anything, and that any debt owned by that state is denominated in its own currency, a state is about as likely to go bankrupt as the Earth is to fall out of its orbit.


Except the second assumption isn’t always as true as you make it out to be: a lot of developing and smaller countries will have at least some debt denominated in foreign currencies if they are trying to seek outside capital investment (since their internal capital markets probably aren’t liquid or deep enough to satisfy all their requirements). As such, they absolutely could go bankrupt if they let those debts go too large or their internal currency becomes too worthless.

And that’s completely ignoring all the countries that don’t have full sovereignty over the currency they use, either due to monetary unions or because of an inability to maintain their own currency, any of which could also go bankrupt if their debts got too large.
Last edited by Prizea on Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kowani
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28392
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:27 pm

Elwher wrote:
Kowani wrote:You…realize states can’t go bankrupt in the modern day, right? Assuming a fiat currency that isn’t tied to anything, and that any debt owned by that state is denominated in its own currency, a state is about as likely to go bankrupt as the Earth is to fall out of its orbit.

Not bankrupt in a legal sense, I agree that is not possible; but bankrupt as in not being able to maintain necessary services and a worthless currency.

…That is also not really how currency works.

Prizea wrote:
Kowani wrote:You…realize states can’t go bankrupt in the modern day, right? Assuming a fiat currency that isn’t tied to anything, and that any debt owned by that state is denominated in its own currency, a state is about as likely to go bankrupt as the Earth is to fall out of its orbit.


Except the second assumption isn’t always as true as you make it out to be: a lot of developing and smaller countries will have at least some debt denominated in foreign currencies if they are trying to seek outside capital investment (since their internal capital markets probably aren’t liquid or deep enough to satisfy all their requirements). As such, they absolutely could go bankrupt if they let those debts go too large or their internal currency becomes too worthless.

Yes, thank you for agreeing with me.
And that’s completely ignoring all the countries that don’t have full sovereignty over the currency they use, either due to monetary unions or because of an inability to maintain their own currency, any of which could also go bankrupt if their debts got too large.

I did actually forget about that point, you’re right.
Telconi wrote:Every once in a while Kowani does have a decent point.

Kowani wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also, you could quit being a condescending dick.
I could. But am I going to? Nah.
ni dio, ni rey, ni patria, ni amo

A Republic...if you can keep it.

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Prizea
Diplomat
 
Posts: 727
Founded: May 31, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Prizea » Wed Jul 01, 2020 8:00 am

Kowani wrote:
Prizea wrote:
Except the second assumption isn’t always as true as you make it out to be: a lot of developing and smaller countries will have at least some debt denominated in foreign currencies if they are trying to seek outside capital investment (since their internal capital markets probably aren’t liquid or deep enough to satisfy all their requirements). As such, they absolutely could go bankrupt if they let those debts go too large or their internal currency becomes too worthless.

Yes, thank you for agreeing with me.


If you think I was agreeing with you, you didn’t write what you meant to write.

The first statement,

Kowani wrote:You…realize states can’t go bankrupt in the modern day, right?


isn’t qualified by anything. The second statement (which you qualified with the assumptions) I don’t have any problem with, but the fact you didn’t qualify the first statement meant you were implying that those assumptions were pretty much always true. That’s not the case, for the reasons I outlined above, and it’s therefore eminently possible for a state to go bankrupt in the modern day (even ignoring the cases like Greece where they are in a monetary union).

It’s also a clearly wrong statement in practice, considering Lebanon defaulted on its sovereign debt in March this year (https://www.aljazeera.com/ajimpact/leba ... 00108.html) and it’s not exactly alone in having to do that in modern times (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ebt_crises).
Last edited by Prizea on Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16958
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:21 am

Much to my delight, the Atlas Shrugged film is free on YouTube.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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The Greater Ohio Valley
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6699
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:35 am

Northern Davincia wrote:Much to my delight, the Atlas Shrugged film is free on YouTube.

Probably one of the worst films ever made off one of the worst books ever written.
Fly me to the moon on an irradiated manhole cover.
Hey, it’s up to us to take our Umbrella.
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.1

Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16958
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:42 am

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:Much to my delight, the Atlas Shrugged film is free on YouTube.

Probably one of the worst films ever made off one of the worst books ever written.

When did you read the book?
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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The Greater Ohio Valley
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Posts: 6699
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:19 am

Northern Davincia wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Probably one of the worst films ever made off one of the worst books ever written.

When did you read the book?

I attempted to over a decade ago when I was in high school during a more edgier period in my life. Reading summaries of it later on in life told me the rest of what I needed to know about it, which is a bunch of rich people fucking off from a hilariously dystopian to Rich People Utopia like a bunch of babies only to come back later on to commit terrorism and to give long winded multi-hour speeches about how awesome they are and how awesome it is to be narcissistic, sociopathic and rich. It's such a long, boring and stupid book with insufferable and unlikable characters with a shitty message and Ayn Rand is a war criminal for writing such a travesty of literature and how anyone can make it through reading it with their mind intact and take anything good from it is beyond me.
Fly me to the moon on an irradiated manhole cover.
Hey, it’s up to us to take our Umbrella.
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.1

Liriena wrote:anyone to the left of Pinochet: *exists*

right-wingers: wat about vuvuzelaaa lmao gottem

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Absolutely No one in any topic ever:
Saiwania: Hey guys did you know im a nazi? Here is another refence to something involving the nazis.

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Northern Davincia
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 16958
Founded: Jun 10, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Davincia » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:51 am

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:When did you read the book?

I attempted to over a decade ago when I was in high school during a more edgier period in my life. Reading summaries of it later on in life told me the rest of what I needed to know about it, which is a bunch of rich people fucking off from a hilariously dystopian to Rich People Utopia like a bunch of babies only to come back later on to commit terrorism and to give long winded multi-hour speeches about how awesome they are and how awesome it is to be narcissistic, sociopathic and rich. It's such a long, boring and stupid book with insufferable and unlikable characters with a shitty message and Ayn Rand is a war criminal for writing such a travesty of literature and how anyone can make it through reading it with their mind intact and take anything good from it is beyond me.

Summaries are not always reliable or accurate. This interpretation I have noticed to be most common among people who have not read the book, but blindly follow the opinion of folks who might or might not have read it. If I were criticize Star Wars on the basis of promoting terrorism, it would be laughably incorrect.
Hoppean Libertarian, Acolyte of von Mises, Protector of Our Sacred Liberties
Economic Left/Right: 9.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.05
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."

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Taihei Tengoku
Senator
 
Posts: 4851
Founded: Dec 15, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Taihei Tengoku » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:34 am

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:When did you read the book?

I attempted to over a decade ago when I was in high school during a more edgier period in my life. Reading summaries of it later on in life told me the rest of what I needed to know about it, which is a bunch of rich people fucking off from a hilariously dystopian to Rich People Utopia like a bunch of babies only to come back later on to commit terrorism and to give long winded multi-hour speeches about how awesome they are and how awesome it is to be narcissistic, sociopathic and rich. It's such a long, boring and stupid book with insufferable and unlikable characters with a shitty message and Ayn Rand is a war criminal for writing such a travesty of literature and how anyone can make it through reading it with their mind intact and take anything good from it is beyond me.

You're mad because she took the Soviet diction and turned it against Sovietism
REST IN POWER
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Picairn
Minister
 
Posts: 2232
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:57 pm

The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:Ayn Rand is a war criminal

Ok.

Hey, I think I have found a worthy quote to add to my signature!
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WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Pauline M. Warburton (Staff)
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Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

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The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11835
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:47 am

Taihei Tengoku wrote:
The Greater Ohio Valley wrote:I attempted to over a decade ago when I was in high school during a more edgier period in my life. Reading summaries of it later on in life told me the rest of what I needed to know about it, which is a bunch of rich people fucking off from a hilariously dystopian to Rich People Utopia like a bunch of babies only to come back later on to commit terrorism and to give long winded multi-hour speeches about how awesome they are and how awesome it is to be narcissistic, sociopathic and rich. It's such a long, boring and stupid book with insufferable and unlikable characters with a shitty message and Ayn Rand is a war criminal for writing such a travesty of literature and how anyone can make it through reading it with their mind intact and take anything good from it is beyond me.

You're mad because she took the Soviet diction and turned it against Sovietism


Objectivism is essentially capitalist dialectics. It is at its core, very Russian.
"Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig."
—Robert Heinlein

a libertarian, which means i want poor babies to die or smth

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The Reformed American Republic
Minister
 
Posts: 2021
Founded: May 23, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby The Reformed American Republic » Fri Jul 03, 2020 6:09 am

Objectivism at least in the economic sphere is an establishment ideology. The Republican party promotes that book constantly and they try to live by it. In their doctrine of Fusionism they mix Rand type economics with strong social conservatism.

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Elwher
Senator
 
Posts: 4689
Founded: May 24, 2012
Corporate Bordello

Postby Elwher » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:10 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:
Taihei Tengoku wrote:You're mad because she took the Soviet diction and turned it against Sovietism


Objectivism is essentially capitalist dialectics. It is at its core, very Russian.


Objectivism is fascist Libertarianism. "We will force you to be free!"
CYNIC, n. A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be. Hence the custom among the Scythians of plucking out a cynic's eyes to improve his vision.
Ambrose Bierce

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The Liberated Territories
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11835
Founded: Dec 03, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Liberated Territories » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:37 pm

The Reformed American Republic wrote:Objectivism at least in the economic sphere is an establishment ideology. The Republican party promotes that book constantly and they try to live by it. In their doctrine of Fusionism they mix Rand type economics with strong social conservatism.


Eh no not really, the establishment philosophy is solidly keynesian. Its just the conservatives prefer war spending and the liberals welfare spending.
"Never attempt to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig."
—Robert Heinlein

a libertarian, which means i want poor babies to die or smth

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Picairn
Minister
 
Posts: 2232
Founded: Feb 21, 2020
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Picairn » Fri Jul 03, 2020 8:43 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Eh no not really, the establishment philosophy is solidly keynesian. Its just the conservatives prefer war spending and the liberals welfare spending.

It's not even Keynesian anyway, because Keynes was smart enough to realize you need to cut spending to save money during good times, then use your money reserves to save the economy during recessions. Politicians now just want to spend everything to buy votes.
Picairn's Ministry of Foreign Relations
Minister: Edward H. Cornell
WA Ambassador: John M. Terry (Active)
Pauline M. Warburton (Staff)
Long live the Emperor!
Factbook | Constitution | Newspaper
Albrenia wrote:With great power comes great mockability.

The Emerald Legion wrote:Nobody generates wealth. Wealth exists. You simply shift it around, or sometimes discover more.
Center-left liberal, or "neoliberal scum"
according to the far-left and far-right.
Listen here Jack, we're going to destroy malarkey.

♔ The Empire of Picairn ♔
-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-—————————-✯ ✯ ✯ ✯ ✯-
✵ Best DNC shill, Clinton bot, and Soros puppet of 2020. All Hail Biden! ✵
Wanted criminal by the CCP.

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Taihei Tengoku
Senator
 
Posts: 4851
Founded: Dec 15, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Taihei Tengoku » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:31 pm

Fusionism isn't even real, nobody besides teenager polisci neophytes use that term.
REST IN POWER
Franberry - HMS Barham - North Point - Questers - Tyrandis - Rosbaningrad - Sharfghotten
UNJUSTLY DELETED
OUR DAY WILL COME

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