Libertarian Discussion Thread II - Don't Thread on Me

[Torrocca]

As we all really know, one person deserves to have hundreds of billions of dollars, something that nobody could ever spend in their single lifetime, while millions elsewhere deserve to suffer on the streets and in their homes because they didn't have the balls to derive wealth from the suffering of others.

What deriving do you exactly mean?

I'm sure you can infer from the context clues of my scorn of the very existence of Jeff Bezos as a CEO and his business practice to figure out what I mean.

[Petrolheadia]

What deriving do you exactly mean?

I'm sure you can infer from the context clues of my scorn of the very existence of Jeff Bezos as a CEO and his business practice to figure out what I mean.

Any specific things?

[Torrocca]

I'm sure you can infer from the context clues of my scorn of the very existence of Jeff Bezos as a CEO and his business practice to figure out what I mean.

Any specific things?

Gee, I dunno where to start. How about the pitiful wages of his workers, which only increased on paper? How about the water bottle bathrooms? How about literally the motherfucking fact of the matter that this bastard has billions of dollars while there's millions of people across the world struggling to even have a consistent amount of food a day?

[Industrial Skyrim]

Pride is the sin of believing yourself to be naturally better than any other human. I would rather die than have a false sense of superiority, we are all equally capable of evil. I will take Joy in my work instead, happiness at the fact that I aim to help society.

Once again you assume the poor are inferior, exemplifying Pride, I warn you to question yourself, you are on a path that will lead to harm.

Help society? How? By supporting enslavement of the productive to the costs of supporting the unproductive? Cry me a river, and check your pretentious sense of moral superiority. You are nothing but a hypocrite.

The poor are suffering from conditions created by the rich so that the rich can get rich.

You apparently have a poor understanding of economics. Wealth is not a zero sum game. Wealth is created by the rich, not consumed. In order to produce wealth, you must produce quality goods and services that people are willing to purchase in an open market. Henry Ford created great wealth when he streamlined factory production. Now regular people can afford automobiles, and many people can make a living repairing, customizing, and trading cars. Many people's retirement funds are invested in the stock market, which benefit greatly from Mr. Ford's contributions.

If you truly care to help the poor, then your first course of action should not be to preach cliches about inequality, but rather to study economics and observe the things that legitimately produce wealth and improve lives.

[Torrocca]

Pride is the sin of believing yourself to be naturally better than any other human. I would rather die than have a false sense of superiority, we are all equally capable of evil. I will take Joy in my work instead, happiness at the fact that I aim to help society.

Once again you assume the poor are inferior, exemplifying Pride, I warn you to question yourself, you are on a path that will lead to harm.

Help society? How? By supporting enslavement of the productive to the costs of supporting the unproductive? Cry me a river, and check your pretentious sense of moral superiority. You are nothing but a hypocrite.

The poor are suffering from conditions created by the rich so that the rich can get rich.

You apparently have a poor understanding of economics. Wealth is not a zero sum game. Wealth is created by the rich, not consumed. In order to produce wealth, you must produce quality goods and services that people are willing to purchase in an open market. Henry Ford created great wealth when he streamlined factory production. Now regular people can afford automobiles, and many people can make a living repairing, customizing, and trading cars. Many people's retirement funds are invested in the stock market, which benefit greatly from Mr. Ford's contributions.

If you truly care to help the poor, then your first course of action should not be to preach cliches about inequality, but rather to study economics and observe the things that legitimately produce wealth and improve lives.

Surprise: it's the workers that produce the wealth. That's why they're called the workers, hunny. The CEO doesn't do jack, diddly, or squat when it comes to the actual production of the goods and services that give them their wealth in the first place.

[Firaxin]

Pride is the sin of believing yourself to be naturally better than any other human. I would rather die than have a false sense of superiority, we are all equally capable of evil. I will take Joy in my work instead, happiness at the fact that I aim to help society.

Once again you assume the poor are inferior, exemplifying Pride, I warn you to question yourself, you are on a path that will lead to harm.

Help society? How? By supporting enslavement of the productive to the costs of supporting the unproductive? Cry me a river, and check your pretentious sense of moral superiority. You are nothing but a hypocrite.

No, I do not assume the poor are inferior, in fact I find them to be just like the rest of us. Like everyone else they want to make a change in the world for the better, yet like most they cannot, in this case shackled by an income determined by a soulless business wither the only motive of making more money. Thus, they are productive, while those at the top earn way more than they will ever need, thus they are being unproductive by limiting others. Besides, calling it enslavement is like calling the government a slaveholder of all citizens.

I am not in an upset mood, right now, I have no urge to cry or whine.

How am I a Hypocrite? I have claimed no superiority nor have I claimed the poor are lazy. I loathe the logically inconsistent and have actively combated myself when not acting in accordance with my beliefs.

[Industrial Skyrim]

Surprise: it's the workers that produce the wealth. That's why they're called the workers, hunny. The CEO doesn't do jack, diddly, or squat when it comes to the actual production of the goods and services that give them their wealth in the first place.

But without the rich, there is no where for the workers to work. The primary form of wealth is not money, it is ideas, innovation. Would you rather live in world with no wealthy innovators, where workers are condemned to a life of hard labor on a farm or mine for a mere sustenance. Only with the advent of relatively free markets have conditions improved for the workers. Now we have machines and automation which make work much safer, which allow for shorter workdays, and which create wealth that is invested in other areas, which include education and medicine. Did you know that most of the money traded on stock exchanges does not belong to elites, but rather to regular folks who invest their money into retirement plans?

The CEO has to work many hours of overtime to negotiate contracts, oversee payroll and deal with government regulations. Some, such as Elon Musk, even go so far as to contribute to the creation of ideas and technology. Without the time investment, commitment and expertise of the CEO, the workers would be left with a job to begin with.

Again, if you care so much for these workers, your first course of action is to understand economics. Until then, you are merely an ignorant spewer of cliches.

[Torrocca]

Surprise: it's the workers that produce the wealth. That's why they're called the workers, hunny. The CEO doesn't do jack, diddly, or squat when it comes to the actual production of the goods and services that give them their wealth in the first place.

But without the rich, there is no where for the workers to work.

Humanity literally stopped existing because nobody could do anything whatsoever in 200,000 BCE because there weren't rich people around to tell people what to do.

News flash: people can do things democratically and entirely of their own accord without the influence of a boss.

[Petrolheadia]

Help society? How? By supporting enslavement of the productive to the costs of supporting the unproductive? Cry me a river, and check your pretentious sense of moral superiority. You are nothing but a hypocrite.


You apparently have a poor understanding of economics. Wealth is not a zero sum game. Wealth is created by the rich, not consumed. In order to produce wealth, you must produce quality goods and services that people are willing to purchase in an open market. Henry Ford created great wealth when he streamlined factory production. Now regular people can afford automobiles, and many people can make a living repairing, customizing, and trading cars. Many people's retirement funds are invested in the stock market, which benefit greatly from Mr. Ford's contributions.

If you truly care to help the poor, then your first course of action should not be to preach cliches about inequality, but rather to study economics and observe the things that legitimately produce wealth and improve lives.

Surprise: it's the workers that produce the wealth. That's why they're called the workers, hunny. The CEO doesn't do jack, diddly, or squat when it comes to the actual production of the goods and services that give them their wealth in the first place.

Saying that the businessmen are unnecessary is like claiming marksmen are not necessary, because it's the guns that fire bullets.

[Torrocca]

Surprise: it's the workers that produce the wealth. That's why they're called the workers, hunny. The CEO doesn't do jack, diddly, or squat when it comes to the actual production of the goods and services that give them their wealth in the first place.

Saying that the businessmen are unnecessary is like claiming marksmen are not necessary, because it's the guns that fire bullets.

The businessman is unnecessary. Democratic labor isn't an impossibility, nor is it even an improbability.

[Petrolheadia]

Saying that the businessmen are unnecessary is like claiming marksmen are not necessary, because it's the guns that fire bullets.

The businessman is unnecessary. Democratic labor isn't an impossibility, nor is it even an improbability.

Surprisingly enough, it takes a different skill set to understand the market than to understand the assembly process.

[Torrocca]

The businessman is unnecessary. Democratic labor isn't an impossibility, nor is it even an improbability.

Surprisingly enough, it takes a different skill set to understand the market than to understand the assembly process.

Have you considered that people can do that... without CEOs? I know, I know, it's an utterly shocking revelation that people can learn how to do things, but it's true.

[Petrolheadia]

Surprisingly enough, it takes a different skill set to understand the market than to understand the assembly process.

Have you considered that people can do that... without CEOs? I know, I know, it's an utterly shocking revelation that people can learn how to do things, but it's true.

It's better to have people who deeply know one thing, the markets than took a course in Economics 101.

If management is so easy, why aren't you a manager?

[Torrocca]

Have you considered that people can do that... without CEOs? I know, I know, it's an utterly shocking revelation that people can learn how to do things, but it's true.

It's better to have people who deeply know one thing, the markets than took a course in Economics 101.

If management is so easy, why aren't you a manager?

The primary reason is that I, an Anarchist (yes, I know that this too is a particularly shocking thing), don't want to boss people around. Shocker, innit? Who could've possibly imagined something like that from an Anarchist?

Are you even reading my argument? I love how the whole part where people can self-manage themselves democratically just blew right over your head for you to make this asinine statement about management in the first place.

[Industrial Skyrim]

No, I do not assume the poor are inferior, in fact I find them to be just like the rest of us. Like everyone else they want to make a change in the world for the better, yet like most they cannot, in this case shackled by an income determined by a soulless business wither the only motive of making more money. Thus, they are productive, while those at the top earn way more than they will ever need, thus they are being unproductive by limiting others. Besides, calling it enslavement is like calling the government a slaveholder of all citizens.

Economically illiterate nonsense. Your pay is a reflection of the value that you provide to the economy. CEOs, engineers, doctors and industrialists provide expertise, management and innovation. The man who simply works behind the cash register does only that. That man has the potential to rise to great heights, but until he gains the skills and experience of the CEO and other highly paid professionals, he simply does not command high pay.

How am I a Hypocrite? I have claimed no superiority nor have I claimed the poor are lazy. I loathe the logically inconsistent and have actively combated myself when not acting in accordance with my beliefs.

You lecture me based on your perception of my greed and sense of productive supremacy, yet support the consumption of other people's wealth by those who have not contributed to the production of that wealth. You imply that you are more humble than I, while being condescending, pretentious and ignorant. That is why you are a hypocrite. Furthermore, you care about the poor, yet obviously have done nothing to learn about economics and how best to provide the poor with skills and fighting chance in the economy. That is most illogical.

[Petrolheadia]

It's better to have people who deeply know one thing, the markets than took a course in Economics 101.

If management is so easy, why aren't you a manager?

The primary reason is that I, an Anarchist (yes, I know that this too is a particularly shocking thing), don't want to boss people around. Shocker, innit? Who could've possibly imagined something like that from an Anarchist?

Someone who wants you to show that an average layman can comprehend the workings of a certain market?

[Torrocca]

The primary reason is that I, an Anarchist (yes, I know that this too is a particularly shocking thing), don't want to boss people around. Shocker, innit? Who could've possibly imagined something like that from an Anarchist?

Someone who wants you to show that an average layman can comprehend the workings of a certain market?

Well that someone clearly hasn't a clue about what the fuck they're even arguing against in the first place and should pick up a book or two since it's not my job to lecture you yet again on Anarchist ideas.

[Petrolheadia]

Someone who wants you to show that an average layman can comprehend the workings of a certain market?

Well that someone clearly hasn't a clue about what the fuck they're even arguing against in the first place and should pick up a book or two since it's not my job to lecture you yet again on Anarchist ideas.

So how are people supposed to self-govern without understanding the industry?

[Industrial Skyrim]

Humanity literally stopped existing because nobody could do anything whatsoever in 200,000 BCE because there weren't rich people around to tell people what to do.

News flash: people can do things democratically and entirely of their own accord without the influence of a boss.

Humans have lived in squalor until recent times, largely due to the rise of free markets, international trade and technology. It was the mind of the innovator that allowed to workers to be in factory, or a cubicle, rather than in miserable conditions on a farm living on a mere sustainable. You really don't grasp the concept of wealth creation and innovation, and the uplifting effect that that has on regular people.

[Torrocca]

Well that someone clearly hasn't a clue about what the fuck they're even arguing against in the first place and should pick up a book or two since it's not my job to lecture you yet again on Anarchist ideas.

So how are people supposed to self-govern without understanding the industry?

They can fucking learn the industry, Jesus fucking Christ. It's obvious you're hardly reading what I'm saying because I literally just explained this totally, wildly incomprehensible fact that people have an ability to learn things.

[Torrocca]

Humanity literally stopped existing because nobody could do anything whatsoever in 200,000 BCE because there weren't rich people around to tell people what to do.

News flash: people can do things democratically and entirely of their own accord without the influence of a boss.

Humans have lived in squalor until recent times, largely due to the rise of free markets, international trade and technology. It was the mind of the innovator that allowed to workers to be in factory, or a cubicle, rather than in miserable conditions on a farm living on a mere sustainable. You really don't grasp the concept of wealth creation and innovation, and the uplifting effect that that has on regular people.

Trailer parks are just pay to win squalor.

[Petrolheadia]

Humans have lived in squalor until recent times, largely due to the rise of free markets, international trade and technology. It was the mind of the innovator that allowed to workers to be in factory, or a cubicle, rather than in miserable conditions on a farm living on a mere sustainable. You really don't grasp the concept of wealth creation and innovation, and the uplifting effect that that has on regular people.

Trailer parks are just pay to win squalor.

With technologies above what the greatest mansions had 200 years ago.

So how are people supposed to self-govern without understanding the industry?

They can fucking learn the industry, Jesus fucking Christ. It's obvious you're hardly reading what I'm saying because I literally just explained this totally, wildly incomprehensible fact that people have an ability to learn things.

"Learn the industry?".

Well, try to do it if it is so easy.

[Torrocca]

Trailer parks are just pay to win squalor.

With technologies above what the greatest mansions had 200 years ago.

Advanced suffering is still suffering, hunny.

They can fucking learn the industry, Jesus fucking Christ. It's obvious you're hardly reading what I'm saying because I literally just explained this totally, wildly incomprehensible fact that people have an ability to learn things.

"Learn the industry?".

Well, try to do it if it is so easy.

CEOs are clearly Greek demi-gods seeing as how they're literally the only people who can apparently learn an industry's ins and outs.

[Petrolheadia]

With technologies above what the greatest mansions had 200 years ago.

Advanced suffering is still suffering, hunny.

And we'll have it as long as the world exists. Code words: scarcity and relativity.

"Learn the industry?".

Well, try to do it if it is so easy.

CEOs are clearly Greek demi-gods seeing as how they're literally the only people who can apparently learn an industry's ins and outs.

As opposed to the godly workers who can pick their industry's workings up as they get a job?

[Torrocca]

Advanced suffering is still suffering, hunny.

And we'll have it as long as the world exists. Code words: scarcity and relativity.

Artificial scarcity can be killed by killing Capitalism.

CEOs are clearly Greek demi-gods seeing as how they're literally the only people who can apparently learn an industry's ins and outs.

As opposed to the godly workers who can pick their industry's workings up as they get a job?

Here's a thought: both are human fucking beings and are capable of all the same things, so the workers can indeed do what a CEO can without need for a CEO or any other kind of boss.