GUN TALK II: Doubletap

[Impaled Nazarene]

I've heard so many different stories its hard to know which is right

Well, "the fix" caused other issues.

And the fix for that fix's fix resulted in the M16A2.

And the A2 onwards has been a great success?

[Grinning Dragon]

To be fair, with the introduction of the M16 it was the ammo that caused it to jam due to the varying powder recipes from ammo manufacturers.

I've heard so many different stories its hard to know which is right

Same here until I ran across an interview with Jim Sullivan, one of the original designers of the rifle
InRangeTV Classics - Jim Sullivan & The M16 in Vietnam
Wasn't this interview per se, however on par with the interview I had seen years ago.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

I've heard so many different stories its hard to know which is right

Same here until I ran across an interview with Jim Sullivan, one of the original designers of the rifle
InRangeTV Classics - Jim Sullivan & The M16 in Vietnam
Wasn't this interview per se, however on par with the interview I had seen years ago.

I got mine from the article "Slamfire".

Which covered the initial powder-fouling issue, the unpolished "out-of spec bores" scapegoat for the hard extraction, the initial "fix" of giving the action even more gas resulting in case head separation (in tandem with the early chromed chambers), followed by more mass in the bolt/firing-pin causing slamfires, followed by lightening the bolt and firing pin resulting in misfires (around here we meet the A1 and its forward-assist), stronger hammer springs, stronger recoil/action springs, and a re-harmonized barrel just in time for the 62 grain bullets to fuck that up and a hasty re-do of all the above ending in the A2.

That's the abridged, paraphrased, and slightly non-chronological tl;dr to it.

Later in the A2's career about 90% of the M16's problems could be cleared with tap-rack-slap and a squirt of WD-40 or CLP. The other 10% being the trigger-group and return-springs being twice the age of the end-user.
*Not counting problems with the magazines

[Pax Nerdvana]

Same here until I ran across an interview with Jim Sullivan, one of the original designers of the rifle
InRangeTV Classics - Jim Sullivan & The M16 in Vietnam
Wasn't this interview per se, however on par with the interview I had seen years ago.

I got mine from the article "Slamfire".

Which covered the initial powder-fouling issue, the unpolished "out-of spec bores" scapegoat for the hard extraction, the initial "fix" of giving the action even more gas resulting in case head separation (in tandem with the early chromed chambers), followed by more mass in the bolt/firing-pin causing slamfires, followed by lightening the bolt and firing pin resulting in misfires (around here we meet the A1 and its forward-assist), stronger hammer springs, stronger recoil/action springs, and a re-harmonized barrel just in time for the 62 grain bullets to fuck that up and a hasty re-do of all the above ending in the A2.

That's the abridged, paraphrased, and slightly non-chronological tl;dr to it.

Later in the A2's career about 90% of the M16's problems could be cleared with tap-rack-slap and a squirt of WD-40 or CLP. The other 10% being the trigger-group and return-springs being twice the age of the end-user.
*Not counting problems with the magazines

Huh, I’d always heard it was because of the change in propellant.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

I got mine from the article "Slamfire".

Which covered the initial powder-fouling issue, the unpolished "out-of spec bores" scapegoat for the hard extraction, the initial "fix" of giving the action even more gas resulting in case head separation (in tandem with the early chromed chambers), followed by more mass in the bolt/firing-pin causing slamfires, followed by lightening the bolt and firing pin resulting in misfires (around here we meet the A1 and its forward-assist), stronger hammer springs, stronger recoil/action springs, and a re-harmonized barrel just in time for the 62 grain bullets to fuck that up and a hasty re-do of all the above ending in the A2.

That's the abridged, paraphrased, and slightly non-chronological tl;dr to it.

Later in the A2's career about 90% of the M16's problems could be cleared with tap-rack-slap and a squirt of WD-40 or CLP. The other 10% being the trigger-group and return-springs being twice the age of the end-user.
*Not counting problems with the magazines

Huh, I’d always heard it was because of the change in propellant.

super tl;dr: Propellant threw the timing off and then they tried slapdash fixes and some of those fixes were worse than the initial problem. This caused it to start seeming like the Mk 14 Torpedo fiasco because treating the root cause wasn't an option and upon each minor iteration they made a big show that it was "finally fixed" right before it would fail spectacularly in the field.

Super-duper tl;dr: It was the propellant.

[Pax Nerdvana]

Huh, I’d always heard it was because of the change in propellant.

super tl;dr: Propellant threw the timing off and then they tried slapdash fixes and some of those fixes were worse than the initial problem. This caused it to start seeming like the Mk 14 Torpedo fiasco because treating the root cause wasn't an option and upon each minor iteration they made a big show that it was "finally fixed" right before it would fail spectacularly in the field.

Super-duper tl;dr: It was the propellant.

So my understanding was right and wrong at the same time?

[Hurtful Thoughts]

super tl;dr: Propellant threw the timing off and then they tried slapdash fixes and some of those fixes were worse than the initial problem. This caused it to start seeming like the Mk 14 Torpedo fiasco because treating the root cause wasn't an option and upon each minor iteration they made a big show that it was "finally fixed" right before it would fail spectacularly in the field.

Super-duper tl;dr: It was the propellant.

So my understanding was right and wrong at the same time?

Yeah, pretty much it was the propellant, and not being allowed to change the propellant back to IMR and being stuck with ball-powder until the 1980s.

So they literally did everything else but fix the problem in an effort to fix the problem.

[Pax Nerdvana]

So my understanding was right and wrong at the same time?

Yeah, pretty much it was the propellant, and not being allowed to change the propellant back to IMR and being stuck with ball-powder until the 1980s.

So they literally did everything else but fix the problem in an effort to fix the problem.

Good old government bureaucracy.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Yeah, pretty much it was the propellant, and not being allowed to change the propellant back to IMR and being stuck with ball-powder until the 1980s.

So they literally did everything else but fix the problem in an effort to fix the problem.

Good old government bureaucracy.

Well, on top of that, every single attempt was "there, this time we fixed it for sure" and reality was like "nope", further undermining confidence in the ordnance department's ability to make a gun work.

[Pax Nerdvana]

Good old government bureaucracy.

Well, on top of that, every single attempt was "there, this time we fixed it for sure" and reality was like "nope", further undermining confidence in the ordnance department's ability to make a gun work.

The wonders of government

[HarYan]

If I had to choose a rifle to own or use in service I would choose one in 5,56. No, I don't think it is the best cartridge ever for all the situations, but a generalist one that will serve to do its job. It is not so prolific for nothing.

[Krasny-Volny]

How are US kit builds compared to import AKs? Thinking about getting an AK kit built on a Morissey receiver.

Way I figure somebody stateside is messing with it at some point in the chain regardless, and with a kit build you get more military parts.

[Blue Florentine]

My guns are as follows:

1x Ruger Redhawk revolver (.357 Magnum, 5.5 inch barrel)
1x Winchester Model 1897A1 trench shotgun (vintage, made in 1944)
1x Karabiner 98k bolt-action rifle (my grandpa brought it home as a war trophy)
1x Winchester Model 1894 lever-action repeater (.357 magnum, 26 inch barrel)

[Ithalian Empire]

My guns are as follows:

1x Ruger Redhawk revolver (.357 Magnum, 5.5 inch barrel)
1x Winchester Model 1897A1 trench shotgun (vintage, made in 1944)
1x Karabiner 98k bolt-action rifle (my grandpa brought it home as a war trophy)
1x Winchester Model 1894 lever-action repeater (.357 magnum, 26 inch barrel)

Newest gun I have in a Henry Golden Boy in .357 mag. Oldest is a Mannlicher M1895.

[Blue Florentine]

My guns are as follows:

1x Ruger Redhawk revolver (.357 Magnum, 5.5 inch barrel)
1x Winchester Model 1897A1 trench shotgun (vintage, made in 1944)
1x Karabiner 98k bolt-action rifle (my grandpa brought it home as a war trophy)
1x Winchester Model 1894 lever-action repeater (.357 magnum, 26 inch barrel)

Newest gun I have in a Henry Golden Boy in .357 mag. Oldest is a Mannlicher M1895.

One of my friends has a Winchester Model 1892 that was made in 1899.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Newest gun I have in a Henry Golden Boy in .357 mag. Oldest is a Mannlicher M1895.

One of my friends has a Winchester Model 1892 that was made in 1899.

Laughs in late production model 1891 3-line rifle.

Early wartime-emergency production (1943), though. Mostly Izhevesk with a blyat of Tula parts.

Although the physically oldest is probably "a shotgun of some sort" made sometime between 1871 and 1940 in 16 gauge.

[Blue Florentine]

One of my friends has a Winchester Model 1892 that was made in 1899.

Laughs in late production model 1891 3-line rifle.

Early wartime-emergency production (1943), though. Mostly Izhevesk with a blyat of Tula parts.

Although the physically oldest is probably "a shotgun of some sort" made sometime between 1871 and 1940 in 16 gauge.

Well, you beat my there... I really wish I had bought that Pattern 1853 Enfield rifled musket when I had the chance. It was made in 1861 and used by the Confederate Army during the civil war. It would have been a nice addition to my collection. It was super expensive though

[The Two Jerseys]

One of my friends has a Winchester Model 1892 that was made in 1899.

Laughs in late production model 1891 3-line rifle.

Early wartime-emergency production (1943), though. Mostly Izhevesk with a blyat of Tula parts.

Although the physically oldest is probably "a shotgun of some sort" made sometime between 1871 and 1940 in 16 gauge.

Did someone say 16 gauge?

[Impaled Nazarene]

So the M-16's early reputation came from one major problem and because they didn't fix it properly other things got blamed?
I do know from the famous comic that they had issues with the steel magazine.

Also its a good comic because they tell you what kind of damage happens if you fuck up

[Hurtful Thoughts]

So the M-16's early reputation came from one major problem and because they didn't fix it properly other things got blamed?
I do know from the famous comic that they had issues with the steel magazine.

Also its a good comic because they tell you what kind of damage happens if you fuck up

Pretty much they weren't allowed to blame it on the actual problem so they did other things to fix it, chasing the symptoms.

[The Two Jerseys]

Guys...

30mm Gatling quadmount!

[Lady Victory]

1x Karabiner 98k bolt-action rifle (my grandpa brought it home as a war trophy)

Woah that's cool as fuck.

[Mercatus]

Alright, I’ve ceased to be a poor now that I have my first job, and I’ve got myself a little over $1,000 to spend. I’m torn between buying a Yugoslavian SKS still fresh in cosmoline, a Norinco Paratrooper SKS, or a new Zastava ZPAP. One one hand, I like the collectibility of the SKS platform, but I’ve always wanted a Serbian AK, and only God knows when they will be banned from import when the next Balkan War starts.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Alright, I’ve ceased to be a poor now that I have my first job, and I’ve got myself a little over $1,000 to spend. I’m torn between buying a Yugoslavian SKS still fresh in cosmoline, a Norinco Paratrooper SKS, or a new Zastava ZPAP. One one hand, I like the collectibility of the SKS platform, but I’ve always wanted a Serbian AK, and only God knows when they will be banned from import when the next Balkan War starts.

The yugo seems least likely to fall victim of a "mandatory gun buyback" and thus least likely to become lost in a boating accident.

Plus I like muzzle brakes that double as grenade-launcchers.

[American Legionaries]

Alright, I’ve ceased to be a poor now that I have my first job, and I’ve got myself a little over $1,000 to spend. I’m torn between buying a Yugoslavian SKS still fresh in cosmoline, a Norinco Paratrooper SKS, or a new Zastava ZPAP. One one hand, I like the collectibility of the SKS platform, but I’ve always wanted a Serbian AK, and only God knows when they will be banned from import when the next Balkan War starts.

The yugo seems least likely to fall victim of a "mandatory gun buyback" and thus least likely to become lost in a boating accident.

Plus I like muzzle brakes that double as grenade-launcchers.

California has entered the chat.