Another day, another burqa ban(in Denmark)

[Federal Syndicalist States]

I stand my point, they're an Islamic position.

Yes. They're a radical extremist position in Islamic theology. Which makes it a radical extremist position.

But I wouldn't call them extremist, or radical, it polarizes.

[Fahran]

I stand my point, they're an Islamic position.

Well, yes, but that doesn't address my qualification of that statement either. Women having to stand behind a curtain to pray and having to sit at the back of the bus are arguably Jewish positions. It doesn't mean that they're mainstream or that they're not extremist/radical.

But I wouldn't call them extremist, or radical, it polarizes.

You're allowed to criticize ideas or observe that they're outside the scope of conventional theology/philosophy.

[Frievolk]

Yes. They're a radical extremist position in Islamic theology. Which makes it a radical extremist position.

But I wouldn't call them extremist, or radical, it polarizes.

It doesn't matter what you'd call them. The position that demands a person wear a Burka or a Niqab is an extremist position. It's actually the same position that the most horrible Islamic terrorist groups spawn out of (Salafism)

[Federal Syndicalist States]

But I wouldn't call them extremist, or radical, it polarizes.

It doesn't matter what you'd call them. The position that demands a person wear a Burka or a Niqab is an extremist position. It's actually the same position that the most horrible Islamic terrorist groups spawn out of (Salafism)

I mean, that's the whole point. By saying that wearing niqab is limited to one group, or one specific group for example, contributes to the fact that a certain group gets stigmatized with a said image of clothes, symbols, actions, and so forth.

We live in a time where we, thank God, hugely sway away from the image that not all Muslims want their women to wear the niqaab. However, in course of doing so we managed to target a smaller group, named Salafists, that are target, or being victim, of the actions of individuals who happen to be Muslim. I hope it won't take long before we can pin point the actions back to the core of said terrorists, namely the organizations.

Are there Salafist groups that commit acts of terrorism? Yes. Are all Salafists terrorists? No. Just because they have an opinion other than mainstream Western citizens, or mainstream Muslims for example, doesn't make them extreme. But that's my argument.

And I don't defend those who compel others to wear certain clothes. I completely agree that people who compel others to wear certain clothes should be shunned for that. However, I do not limit them to Salafists.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Name one that isn't a fundamentalist.

Spoiler, it’s probably going to be a list of people that they know personally. You’re not going to get some big name that you can refute

I don't know anyone who wears a burqa.

So clearly we need to play into the terrorists' narratives about oppression because if we give them the inch of wearing Burqas they'll take the mile of demanding full sharia?

We do already have partial sharia alongside secular law. It's not really that big of a deal. We have halacha too. I just wanted to clarify that.

Both should be practiced in full

And, again, people are correct when they describe the burqa/niqab as being tied to religious radicalism.

Partially correct.

[Canadensia]

Just ask the Romans.

Burqas caused the fall of Rome?

I'm not dignifying this comment with a response.

On a timescale of centuries all cultures are replaced.

No actually, they aren't. Chinese culture, for example, has existed for millennia.

Because, y'know, they actually put some effort into preserving their beliefs and mores.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Burqas caused the fall of Rome?

I'm not dignifying this comment with a response.

On a timescale of centuries all cultures are replaced.

No actually, they aren't. Chinese culture, for example, has existed for millennia.

Because, y'know, they actually put some effort into preserving their beliefs and mores.

Chinese culture has changed a lot. Also, you shouldn't be applauding people for persecuting others just because they're different.

[Fahran]

Both should be practiced in full

That's impossible actually. Hence yearning for Olam HaBa.

Partially correct.

I mean, moderate women could wear it, but that almost never happens.

[Page]

It doesn't matter what you'd call them. The position that demands a person wear a Burka or a Niqab is an extremist position. It's actually the same position that the most horrible Islamic terrorist groups spawn out of (Salafism)

I mean, that's the whole point. By saying that wearing niqab is limited to one group, or one specific group for example, contributes to the fact that a certain group gets stigmatized with a said image of clothes, symbols, actions, and so forth.

We live in a time where we, thank God, hugely sway away from the image that not all Muslims want their women to wear the niqaab. However, in course of doing so we managed to target a smaller group, named Salafists, that are target, or being victim, of the actions of individuals who happen to be Muslim. I hope it won't take long before we can pin point the actions back to the core of said terrorists, namely the organizations.

Are there Salafist groups that commit acts of terrorism? Yes. Are all Salafists terrorists? No. Just because they have an opinion other than mainstream Western citizens, or mainstream Muslims for example, doesn't make them extreme. But that's my argument.

And I don't defend those who compel others to wear certain clothes. I completely agree that people who compel others to wear certain clothes should be shunned for that. However, I do not limit them to Salafists.

Not all Salafists are terrorists but all are extremists having a dangerous, authoritarian, regressive influence on society. Christian fundamentalists like John Hagee and Pat Robertson don't command suicide bombers, but they are anti-constitutional theocrats who have to be refuted for the good of democracy.

It would be a serious mistake to say that one must be violent to be a dangerous extremist.

[Fahran]

I mean, that's the whole point. By saying that wearing niqab is limited to one group, or one specific group for example, contributes to the fact that a certain group gets stigmatized with a said image of clothes, symbols, actions, and so forth.

If people were wearing shirts that depicted a sickle and hammer, I would perceive them as promoting socialism. If people were wearing a cross/crucifix around their neck, I would perceive them as being Christian. If people were wearing shtraimlech and payot, I would assume they were Ultra-Orthodox Jews.

We live in a time where we, thank God, hugely sway away from the image that not all Muslims want their women to wear the niqaab. However, in course of doing so we managed to target a smaller group, named Salafists, that are target, or being victim, of the actions of individuals who happen to be Muslim. I hope it won't take long before we can pin point the actions back to the core of said terrorists, namely the organizations.

The problem isn't just terrorism, though practically every member of Daesh or al-Qaeda has been Wahhabi. It's that in practically all cases Wahhabi values differ fundamentally from those of the West and that social pressure and coercion are enough to impose those values over communities. I kinda view them in the same light as I view the Charedim, as you might have guessed.

Are there Salafist groups that commit acts of terrorism? Yes. Are all Salafists terrorists? No. Just because they have an opinion other than mainstream Western citizens, or mainstream Muslims for example, doesn't make them extreme. But that's my argument.

By that logic, Stalinists and Charedim aren't extreme. It's a bit silly.

[Ifreann]

Burqas caused the fall of Rome?

I'm not dignifying this comment with a response.

Awww.

On a timescale of centuries all cultures are replaced.

No actually, they aren't. Chinese culture, for example, has existed for millennia.

Because, y'know, they actually put some effort into preserving their beliefs and mores.

Has Chinese culture existed for millennia?

Or have there been many cultures in the general geographic area we today call China?

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

So clearly we need to play into the terrorists' narratives about oppression because if we give them the inch of wearing Burqas they'll take the mile of demanding full sharia?

We do already have partial sharia alongside secular law. It's not really that big of a deal. We have halacha too. I just wanted to clarify that. And, again, people are correct when they describe the burqa/niqab as being tied to religious radicalism.

I would say perhaps for the burqa, but I’m seeing more and more Muslim women wearing the niqab. Haven’t seen anyone in a burqa. However, I live in a liberal city north of the mason dixion line, so perhaps Muslims in the south are more prone to conservative conformity when it comes to dress.

Interesting thing that is related to this subject. When I was in high school, I befriended a religious Muslim girl, because at that time, I was a devout and outspoken conservative Protestant then. We both shared an disgust to all the open displays of homosexuality in our school. One day, she came to school wearing a niqab, and she did so for about a couple of weeks. Then, one day, she showed up without it, and I asked her why she was not wearing it, and she told her father told her not to wear the niqab.

It seems there is a younger generation of Muslims(and Christians for that matter) adopting a more conservative approach to their theology and religion.

[Canadensia]

I'm not dignifying this comment with a response.



No actually, they aren't. Chinese culture, for example, has existed for millennia.

Because, y'know, they actually put some effort into preserving their beliefs and mores.

Chinese culture has changed a lot. Also, you shouldn't be applauding people for persecuting others just because they're different.

Not excessively, no.

The mere fact that Chinese culture has survived for millennia is testament to the longevity of cultures that are willing to preserve themselves.

As for persecution, that's a relative term. But regardless, it's generally considered kosher for an immigrant to embrace the cultural norms of their adoptive country. Refusing to do so is rather disrespectful.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Both should be practiced in full

That's impossible actually. Hence yearning for Olam HaBa.

>Looks up
I still don't get it. Why can't Jewish Law be practiced 100%?

Partially correct.

I mean, moderate women could wear it, but that almost never happens.

>'moderate'
Pls don't say that describing Muslims.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Chinese culture has changed a lot. Also, you shouldn't be applauding people for persecuting others just because they're different.

Not excessively, no.

The mere fact that Chinese culture has survived for millennia is testament to the longevity of cultures that are willing to preserve themselves.

As for persecution, that's a relative term. But regardless, it's generally considered kosher for an immigrant to embrace the cultural norms of their adoptive country. Refusing to do so is rather disrespectful.

Yep, there was no such thing as the cultural revolution in China. They are the same as they were in the 1800s. *nods*

[Canadensia]

Has Chinese culture existed for millennia?

Huaxia has existed since at least the Warring States period, so yes, it very much has.

[Canadensia]

Not excessively, no.

The mere fact that Chinese culture has survived for millennia is testament to the longevity of cultures that are willing to preserve themselves.

As for persecution, that's a relative term. But regardless, it's generally considered kosher for an immigrant to embrace the cultural norms of their adoptive country. Refusing to do so is rather disrespectful.

Yep, there was no such thing as the cultural revolution in China. They are the same as they were in the 1800s. *nods*

I never said anything about them being identical to their ancestors.

They are, however, still culturally Chinese, which is something that's survived for millennia, despite the ravaging effects of the Cultural Revolution.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Yep, there was no such thing as the cultural revolution in China. They are the same as they were in the 1800s. *nods*

I never said anything about them being identical to their ancestors.

They are, however, still culturally Chinese, which is something that's survived for millennia, despite the ravaging effects of the Cultural Revolution.

They may be still ethnically Chinese, which I can see what you’re getting at(I mean, seeing ethno-nationalism on NS is just a another part of NS summer). However, the current People’s Republic of China hardly shares anything with their ancestors. You said earlier in this thread that a nation should defend it’s values and tradtitions, and the Cultural Revolution was a dramatic shift in cutural and values.

Even know, the PRC government is trying to move people from the rural areas to the more urban areas. You really need to read about mainland China before using it as a defense of ethnic nationalism or traditionalism.

[Canadensia]

I never said anything about them being identical to their ancestors.

They are, however, still culturally Chinese, which is something that's survived for millennia, despite the ravaging effects of the Cultural Revolution.

They may be still ethnically Chinese, which I can see what you’re getting at(I mean, seeing ethno-nationalism on NS is just a another part of NS summer). However, the current People’s Republic of China hardly shares anything with their ancestors. You said earlier in this thread that a nation should defend it’s values and tradtitions, and the Cultural Revolution was a dramatic shift in cutural and values.

Even know, the PRC government is trying to move people from the rural areas to the more urban areas. You really need to read about mainland China before using it as a defense of ethnic nationalism or traditionalism.

I'm not defending ethnic nationalism, nor are it and traditionalism even remotely compatible things.

The basic objective of the Cultural Revolution pretty much died with Mao, so assuming that it fundamentally altered Chinese culture to the point of making it unrecognizable from what existed before is foolhardy. The Chinese still possess a language (which is the core root of all culture) which has remained remarkably unchanged since at least the Tang period, to the point where a modern Chinese student can read the original text of Romance of the Three Kingdoms or Journey to the West and more or less comprehend it. Fat luck trying the same with an English student reading something in Old English.

I don't believe you understand just how long-lasting Chinese collectivist cultural policies have been. Not even the Cultural Revolution managed to fundamentally change the root essence of Chinese culture.

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read up on mainland China.

[Fahran]

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read up on mainland China.

Additionally, excusing brief flirtations with democracy, Chinese political culture hasn't changed too dramatically either. It's still largely autocratic with large bureaucratic bodies serving a decisive supporting role. Chinese youths have even called it the "Middle Kingdom" of late. Folk religions are still practiced in the countryside as well. We're not talking about a complete change in general culture or ethnicity when we discuss China. Really, we've just seen a lot of smaller ethnic groups assimilated.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read up on mainland China.

Additionally, excusing brief flirtations with democracy, Chinese political culture hasn't changed too dramatically either. It's still largely autocratic with large bureaucratic bodies serving a decisive supporting role. Chinese youths have even called it the "Middle Kingdom" of late. Folk religions are still practiced in the countryside as well. We're not talking about a complete change in general culture or ethnicity when we discuss China. Really, we've just seen a lot of smaller ethnic groups assimilated.

While their political culture has not really changed that much, Chinese society as changed dramatically within the last even fifty years. It changed dramatically with Mao, and then with Deng. Farmers from the countryside are moving or at least working in the city building skyscrapers and the government is encouraging the hell out of this. Urbanization has dramatically changed Chinese culture from it peasant roots.

[Canadensia]

Perhaps you're the one who needs to read up on mainland China.

Additionally, excusing brief flirtations with democracy, Chinese political culture hasn't changed too dramatically either. It's still largely autocratic with large bureaucratic bodies serving a decisive supporting role. Chinese youths have even called it the "Middle Kingdom" of late. Folk religions are still practiced in the countryside as well. We're not talking about a complete change in general culture or ethnicity when we discuss China. Really, we've just seen a lot of smaller ethnic groups assimilated.

Quite true.

To add to this, one of the major reasons for the rapid success of the Communists during the latter parts of the Chinese Civil War is precisely because of their collectivist message, which appealed to the millennia-old Chinese ethos. While Mao and his inner clique definitely weren't traditionalists by any stretch of the imagination, they were nonetheless products of their culture and environment (and as such never fully opposed the root cores of Chinese culture). Because of this, and many other reasons, the Cultural Revolution largely failed in fully stamping out the old Chinese culture, to the point that while it definitely changed in mainland China, the old traditional familial and linguistic structure remains intact. Nevermind Chinese religious beliefs, which have even been re-incorporated into the state's apparatus to a substantial degree.

[Canadensia]

Additionally, excusing brief flirtations with democracy, Chinese political culture hasn't changed too dramatically either. It's still largely autocratic with large bureaucratic bodies serving a decisive supporting role. Chinese youths have even called it the "Middle Kingdom" of late. Folk religions are still practiced in the countryside as well. We're not talking about a complete change in general culture or ethnicity when we discuss China. Really, we've just seen a lot of smaller ethnic groups assimilated.

While their political culture has not really changed that much, Chinese society as changed dramatically within the last even fifty years. It changed dramatically with Mao, and then with Deng. Farmers from the countryside are moving or at least working in the city building skyscrapers and the government is encouraging the hell out of this. Urbanization has dramatically changed Chinese culture from it peasant roots.

And yet Chinese families still tend to be very close knit, Chinese education still largely focuses on memorization with emphasis on academic success being an intense factor, and the language remains largely unchanged.

You cannot reasonably assert that the culture has fundamentally changed. At its roots, this is the same collectivist culture from ancient times.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Additionally, excusing brief flirtations with democracy, Chinese political culture hasn't changed too dramatically either. It's still largely autocratic with large bureaucratic bodies serving a decisive supporting role. Chinese youths have even called it the "Middle Kingdom" of late. Folk religions are still practiced in the countryside as well. We're not talking about a complete change in general culture or ethnicity when we discuss China. Really, we've just seen a lot of smaller ethnic groups assimilated.

Quite true.

To add to this, one of the major reasons for the rapid success of the Communists during the latter parts of the Chinese Civil War is precisely because of their collectivist message, which appealed to the millennia-old Chinese ethos. While Mao and his inner clique definitely weren't traditionalists by any stretch of the imagination, they were nonetheless products of their culture and environment (and as such never fully opposed the root cores of Chinese culture). Because of this, and many other reasons, the Cultural Revolution largely failed in fully stamping out the old Chinese culture, to the point that while it definitely changed in mainland China, the old traditional familial and linguistic structure remains intact. Nevermind Chinese religious beliefs, which have even been re-incorporated into the state's apparatus to a substantial degree.

That’s because Communism is inherently a collectivist idea....

[Canadensia]

Quite true.

To add to this, one of the major reasons for the rapid success of the Communists during the latter parts of the Chinese Civil War is precisely because of their collectivist message, which appealed to the millennia-old Chinese ethos. While Mao and his inner clique definitely weren't traditionalists by any stretch of the imagination, they were nonetheless products of their culture and environment (and as such never fully opposed the root cores of Chinese culture). Because of this, and many other reasons, the Cultural Revolution largely failed in fully stamping out the old Chinese culture, to the point that while it definitely changed in mainland China, the old traditional familial and linguistic structure remains intact. Nevermind Chinese religious beliefs, which have even been re-incorporated into the state's apparatus to a substantial degree.

That’s because Communism is inherently a collectivist idea....

Yes, my point exactly.

That's why I specifically mentioned its ability to take off in China like wildfire.