Is America a democracy?

[Othyl]

But lobbyists do more good than bad.

Please don't misinterpret my position, I love lobbyists. Legislators need some way to learn the things necessary to develop policy. I was pointing out how silly the position is that "it could possibly do something bad, it must be banned."

[Caninope]

But lobbyists do more good than bad.

Please don't misinterpret my position, I love lobbyists. Legislators need some way to learn the things necessary to develop policy. I was pointing out how silly the position is that "it could possibly do something bad, it must be banned."

Oh I know. I was trying to point that out too.

[Platonic Thought]

The USA, in simple terms, is a representative democracy, or, in other words, a republic.

The United States can also be defined as a federation because of our fifty self-governing states and additional territories with some self-government.

I think people try to simplify the notion of what the United States is because we apply a single name to the nation and because of its defined borders. In actuality, the United States is an amorphous entity that cannot be fully defined with a simple term or two.

[Othyl]

The USA, in simple terms, is a representative democracy, or, in other words, a republic.

The United States can also be defined as a federation because of our fifty self-governing states and additional territories with some self-government.

I think people try to simplify the notion of what the United States is because we apply a single name to the nation and because of its defined borders. In actuality, the United States is an amorphous entity that cannot be fully defined with a simple term or two.

Sure it can, constitutional federal republic. Simple as that. What exactly those three words mean is where things get tricky. Or even more simply, America is America, don't like it? Well, you could get nuked right quick.

[Demented Tigers]

But lobbyists do more good than bad.

Please don't misinterpret my position, I love lobbyists. Legislators need some way to learn the things necessary to develop policy. I was pointing out how silly the position is that "it could possibly do something bad, it must be banned."

Surely there are other means by which policy makers learn these things, rather than listening to people who are paid to present the point of view of whoever has hired them?

[Caninope]

But lobbyists do more good than bad.

Please don't misinterpret my position, I love lobbyists. Legislators need some way to learn the things necessary to develop policy. I was pointing out how silly the position is that "it could possibly do something bad, it must be banned."

Surely there are other means by which policy makers learn these things, rather than listening to people who are paid to present the point of view of whoever has hired them?

Not really. Even bureaucrats do that.

[Othyl]

But lobbyists do more good than bad.

Please don't misinterpret my position, I love lobbyists. Legislators need some way to learn the things necessary to develop policy. I was pointing out how silly the position is that "it could possibly do something bad, it must be banned."

Surely there are other means by which policy makers learn these things, rather than listening to people who are paid to present the point of view of whoever has hired them?

People from the industry in question give information about the industry. Everyone's version of the truth is biased. Listen to the logging lobby and the environmentalist lobby before you decide what to do about the logging industry. Just make sure you can trust who's talking to you, which is what all those dinners and lunches establish.

[Demented Tigers]

With regard to lobbyists, here is part of a BBC programme. 4.30 in, is the bit im referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ohANB5Lcw

[Platonic Thought]

The USA, in simple terms, is a representative democracy, or, in other words, a republic.

The United States can also be defined as a federation because of our fifty self-governing states and additional territories with some self-government.

I think people try to simplify the notion of what the United States is because we apply a single name to the nation and because of its defined borders. In actuality, the United States is an amorphous entity that cannot be fully defined with a simple term or two.

Sure it can, constitutional federal republic. Simple as that. What exactly those three words mean is where things get tricky. Or even more simply, America is America, don't like it? Well, you could get nuked right quick.

I'm trying to spur people to think rather than jumping to conclusions.

There are a multitude of things that can still be defined, and quite a few are obvious ones. When you have an executive, legislative and judiciary branch balancing power, what do you call that? Also, when you have a "professional" side of the government, such as the CIA, controlling a lot of the nation's policy, that's not very much like a republic. Also, the Federal Reserve controlling the distribution of money is not very much like a republic institution either.

"America is America, don't like it? Well you could get nuked right quick."

Are you trying to say that the word America is my shield against nuclear warfare.

[Caninope]

With regard to lobbyists, here is part of a BBC programme. 4.30 in, is the bit im referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ohANB5Lcw

You don't understand lobbying then. They can't BUY the votes, they can rally support and give facts, but they can't buy votes.

[Othyl]

The USA, in simple terms, is a representative democracy, or, in other words, a republic.

The United States can also be defined as a federation because of our fifty self-governing states and additional territories with some self-government.

I think people try to simplify the notion of what the United States is because we apply a single name to the nation and because of its defined borders. In actuality, the United States is an amorphous entity that cannot be fully defined with a simple term or two.

Sure it can, constitutional federal republic. Simple as that. What exactly those three words mean is where things get tricky. Or even more simply, America is America, don't like it? Well, you could get nuked right quick.

I'm trying to spur people to think rather than jumping to conclusions.

There are a multitude of things that can still be defined, and quite a few are obvious ones. When you have an executive, legislative and judiciary branch balancing power, what do you call that? Also, when you have a "professional" side of the government, such as the CIA, controlling a lot of the nation's policy, that's not very much like a republic. Also, the Federal Reserve controlling the distribution of money is not very much like a republic institution either.

"America is America, don't like it? Well you could get nuked right quick."

Are you trying to say that the word America is my shield against nuclear warfare.

The CIA drives domestic policy? That's news to me, I thought they just had considerable sway in foreign affairs, along with the DoD and State Department, that seems like plenty of diversification. And the Federal Reserve system is probably just fine, we'd have problems with the world existing in anything that resembles how we perceive the world if we didn't have Benjamin Strong at the New York Fed after WWI. There are some institutions where the slow pace of politics makes no sense. Banking and the military are two great examples. Though the Fed is staffed at it's upper levels by Presidential appointments, making it just as 'republican' as any other department of the Executive branch.

[Caninope]

The CIA drives domestic policy? That's news to me, I thought they just had considerable sway in foreign affairs, along with the DoD and State Department, that seems like plenty of diversification.

They have little power in domestic policy, and if you want to go to someone about foreign affairs, go to the National Security Advisor.

[Demented Tigers]

With regard to lobbyists, here is part of a BBC programme. 4.30 in, is the bit im referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ohANB5Lcw

You don't understand lobbying then. They can't BUY the votes, they can rally support and give facts, but they can't buy votes.

No they obviously can't buy votes. But they have a huge amount of spending power with which to present their opinion to a large number of people + policy makers. I just don't see how one can justify a system which allows corporations to throw their weight around so much.

[Caninope]

With regard to lobbyists, here is part of a BBC programme. 4.30 in, is the bit im referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8ohANB5Lcw

You don't understand lobbying then. They can't BUY the votes, they can rally support and give facts, but they can't buy votes.

No they obviously can't buy votes. But they have a huge amount of spending power with which to present their opinion to a large number of people + policy makers. I just don't see how one can justify a system which allows corporations to throw their weight around so much.

So being able to get your opinions out to a lot of people is a bad thing? I'm confused. I also hope you know that Unions spend huge amounts too.

[NFA Rulz]

America is a Republic

People, both sane and unsane, rational and irrational as the cube root of Pi, are elected to various levels of government to Represent either the People - Congress - or the State - the Senate.

Pure Democracy is Mob Rule.

[Kalakda]

No, it is a Republic, the Founding Fathers intended it to be a Republic instead of a total democracy because they didn't want America to be a case of Tyranny by Majority.

[Othyl]

America is a Republic

People, both sane and unsane, rational and irrational as the cube root of Pi, are elected to various levels of government to Represent either the People - Congress - or the State - the Senate.

Pure Democracy is Mob Rule.

Protip: Since the 17th Amendment the Senate represents the People.

[Maurepas]

America is a Republic

People, both sane and unsane, rational and irrational as the cube root of Pi, are elected to various levels of government to Represent either the People - Congress - or the State - the Senate.

Pure Democracy is Mob Rule.

Protip: Since the 17th Amendment the Senate represents the People.

I'm thinking it's a joke, "Cube root of Pi"?

[Platonic Thought]

The USA, in simple terms, is a representative democracy, or, in other words, a republic.

The United States can also be defined as a federation because of our fifty self-governing states and additional territories with some self-government.

I think people try to simplify the notion of what the United States is because we apply a single name to the nation and because of its defined borders. In actuality, the United States is an amorphous entity that cannot be fully defined with a simple term or two.

Sure it can, constitutional federal republic. Simple as that. What exactly those three words mean is where things get tricky. Or even more simply, America is America, don't like it? Well, you could get nuked right quick.

I'm trying to spur people to think rather than jumping to conclusions.

There are a multitude of things that can still be defined, and quite a few are obvious ones. When you have an executive, legislative and judiciary branch balancing power, what do you call that? Also, when you have a "professional" side of the government, such as the CIA, controlling a lot of the nation's policy, that's not very much like a republic. Also, the Federal Reserve controlling the distribution of money is not very much like a republic institution either.

"America is America, don't like it? Well you could get nuked right quick."

Are you trying to say that the word America is my shield against nuclear warfare.

The CIA drives domestic policy? That's news to me, I thought they just had considerable sway in foreign affairs, along with the DoD and State Department, that seems like plenty of diversification. And the Federal Reserve system is probably just fine, we'd have problems with the world existing in anything that resembles how we perceive the world if we didn't have Benjamin Strong at the New York Fed after WWI. There are some institutions where the slow pace of politics makes no sense. Banking and the military are two great examples. Though the Fed is staffed at it's upper levels by Presidential appointments, making it just as 'republican' as any other department of the Executive branch.

I didn't say the CIA controls domestic policy, I said a nation's policy, which includes foreign policy, since a nation's foreign policy is part of a nation's policy.

I'm not going to get dragged into an argument over whether having a secret/semi-secret government as a good or bad thing. I didn't come here to argue about that, just to discuss the topic of the thread.

[Odhinnia]

The USA is a Federal Constitutional Republic [/thread]

Next topic please.

[Zombodice]

The businesses run America. Nuff said.

[Caninope]

The USA, in simple terms, is a representative democracy, or, in other words, a republic.

The United States can also be defined as a federation because of our fifty self-governing states and additional territories with some self-government.

I think people try to simplify the notion of what the United States is because we apply a single name to the nation and because of its defined borders. In actuality, the United States is an amorphous entity that cannot be fully defined with a simple term or two.

Sure it can, constitutional federal republic. Simple as that. What exactly those three words mean is where things get tricky. Or even more simply, America is America, don't like it? Well, you could get nuked right quick.

I'm trying to spur people to think rather than jumping to conclusions.

There are a multitude of things that can still be defined, and quite a few are obvious ones. When you have an executive, legislative and judiciary branch balancing power, what do you call that? Also, when you have a "professional" side of the government, such as the CIA, controlling a lot of the nation's policy, that's not very much like a republic. Also, the Federal Reserve controlling the distribution of money is not very much like a republic institution either.

"America is America, don't like it? Well you could get nuked right quick."

Are you trying to say that the word America is my shield against nuclear warfare.

The CIA drives domestic policy? That's news to me, I thought they just had considerable sway in foreign affairs, along with the DoD and State Department, that seems like plenty of diversification. And the Federal Reserve system is probably just fine, we'd have problems with the world existing in anything that resembles how we perceive the world if we didn't have Benjamin Strong at the New York Fed after WWI. There are some institutions where the slow pace of politics makes no sense. Banking and the military are two great examples. Though the Fed is staffed at it's upper levels by Presidential appointments, making it just as 'republican' as any other department of the Executive branch.

I didn't say the CIA controls domestic policy, I said a nation's policy, which includes foreign policy, since a nation's foreign policy is part of a nation's policy.

I'm not going to get dragged into an argument over whether having a secret/semi-secret government as a good or bad thing. I didn't come here to argue about that, just to discuss the topic of the thread.

Fail. The CIA doesn't control anything but intelligence gathering. They do not control foreign policy. They advise, sure, but the President controls foreign policy. Government fail.

[Othyl]

I didn't say the CIA controls domestic policy, I said a nation's policy, which includes foreign policy, since a nation's foreign policy is part of a nation's policy.

I'm not going to get dragged into an argument over whether having a secret/semi-secret government as a good or bad thing. I didn't come here to argue about that, just to discuss the topic of the thread.

Well, foreign policy is only half of the nation's policy, so they don't have control over the nations policy, they have influence over parts of it. They still have to act on directives from the President.

I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation, just pointing out a little bit more about the things you mentioned. It does provide evidence to your position that things aren't as cut and dry as we all like to imagine, though.

Fail. The US doesn't control anything but intelligence gathering. They do not control foreign policy. They advise, sure, but the President controls foreign policy. Government fail.

Wait, what? US doesn't control anything but information gathering? I hope you just mistyped and meant CIA, cuz then it makes sense.

[Kazerne]

What the hell? 75% of people say no? It's a democratic republic! It might not be 100% democratic in all ways, but that doesn't mean it's not a frigging democracy. The government still answers to the general population.

This is why the American Electorate should no longer have a voice.

I'm starting to think you're right....

luckily NSG doesn't represent the USA very well...

Well, for the ones that say no on the reasoning that it's a plutocracy or some sort of corporate oilgarchy, I'd agree with you. However, I said no for perfectly valid reasons I've outlined.

I'm agreeing with Othyl here; you see, once you get into asking if a country is or is not [insert form of government here], you need an operant definition to work with. So, democracy: Direct rule by all citizens; one person, one vote; majority rules, etc. Republic: Rule of law; representative democracy; representatives whom voters hold responsible, etc. That's a simplified if easy example of operant definitions. Does America operate as a democracy? With the exception of several areas (Cape Cod minus Barnstable; lots of small towns), the answer is a resounding 'No'. Does America operate as a republic? Well, we have a legislature that represents the interests of the people (In theory), and a President whom we elect through the Electoral College, and a separation of federal and state powers. Yep, I'd say a republic. Which is NOT a democracy. Get over it.

[Odhinnia]

The USA, in simple terms, is a representative democracy, or, in other words, a republic.

The United States can also be defined as a federation because of our fifty self-governing states and additional territories with some self-government.

I think people try to simplify the notion of what the United States is because we apply a single name to the nation and because of its defined borders. In actuality, the United States is an amorphous entity that cannot be fully defined with a simple term or two.

Sure it can, constitutional federal republic. Simple as that. What exactly those three words mean is where things get tricky. Or even more simply, America is America, don't like it? Well, you could get nuked right quick.

I'm trying to spur people to think rather than jumping to conclusions.

There are a multitude of things that can still be defined, and quite a few are obvious ones. When you have an executive, legislative and judiciary branch balancing power, what do you call that? Also, when you have a "professional" side of the government, such as the CIA, controlling a lot of the nation's policy, that's not very much like a republic. Also, the Federal Reserve controlling the distribution of money is not very much like a republic institution either.

"America is America, don't like it? Well you could get nuked right quick."

Are you trying to say that the word America is my shield against nuclear warfare.

The CIA drives domestic policy? That's news to me, I thought they just had considerable sway in foreign affairs, along with the DoD and State Department, that seems like plenty of diversification. And the Federal Reserve system is probably just fine, we'd have problems with the world existing in anything that resembles how we perceive the world if we didn't have Benjamin Strong at the New York Fed after WWI. There are some institutions where the slow pace of politics makes no sense. Banking and the military are two great examples. Though the Fed is staffed at it's upper levels by Presidential appointments, making it just as 'republican' as any other department of the Executive branch.

I didn't say the CIA controls domestic policy, I said a nation's policy, which includes foreign policy, since a nation's foreign policy is part of a nation's policy.

I'm not going to get dragged into an argument over whether having a secret/semi-secret government as a good or bad thing. I didn't come here to argue about that, just to discuss the topic of the thread.

Fail. The US doesn't control anything but intelligence gathering. They do not control foreign policy. They advise, sure, but the President controls foreign policy. Government fail.

The President can't even control his own bowel movements, Congress can and will go over his head if he wants to. The Supreme Court and Congress can tell the President right where he can shove it. If the president vetos a bill, Congress can sill pass it. The only difference is it goes in the history books as the president having objected to it becoming law.