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Real Madrid vs Liverpool Incident: Klopp Karate Stunt

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Nazis in Space
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Postby Nazis in Space » Wed May 30, 2018 12:54 pm

A very special thread by a very special person having very special ideas, I'm certain.
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Postby Soviet-mongol » Wed May 30, 2018 2:23 pm

Yes, the punch on Sallah looked very racist but the main blame goes on the german keeper who got two stupid goals that could have been easily prevented

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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed May 30, 2018 2:28 pm

Soviet-mongol wrote:Yes, the punch on Sallah looked very racist but the main blame goes on the german keeper who got two stupid goals that could have been easily prevented


What punch on Salah?

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Postby Zanera » Wed May 30, 2018 2:37 pm

His wrath against the very thing he breathes to maintain his bodily functions is completely and utterly horrendous to say the least. The complete lack of disregard for oxygen and the air's other constituent gases and bacteria is mind-bogglingly violent and should not be tolerated under any circumstances whatsoever. This coach's promotion of violence after gaining victory, aye, even celebrating at all is worthy of never being employed or receiving human contact again, but his constant onslaught against forces benevolent is a tragedy against everything that humanity holds dear and should not go unpunished.

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Postby Infected Mushroom » Wed May 30, 2018 8:01 pm

Sovaal wrote:My fucking god. Are we really at this point where fucking air karate is promoting violence people? God fucking damn. Might as well ban books becuase it pushes a culture of slaying dragons and saving princesses and other bull.


Well I'm not sure "promoting" is the right word (since it implies an intention) but its the word that came to mind

However, say a 9 year old is watching this on television or from the crowd. He sees Klopp perform these karate moves/punches at the air. They might get the impression that this is something they'd like to try too. And someone down the road could get hurt if its not calculated you know? Plus Klopp himself could have hit someone.

As I say, after much deliberation, I decided that it was okay... but only reluctantly (the context of football must allow for at least some expression of excitement)
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed May 30, 2018 8:04 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Sovaal wrote:My fucking god. Are we really at this point where fucking air karate is promoting violence people? God fucking damn. Might as well ban books becuase it pushes a culture of slaying dragons and saving princesses and other bull.


Well I'm not sure "promoting" is the right word (since it implies an intention) but its the word that came to mind

However, say a 9 year old is watching this on television or from the crowd. He sees Klopp perform these karate moves/punches at the air. They might get the impression that this is something they'd like to try too. And someone down the road could get hurt if its not calculated you know? Plus Klopp himself could have hit someone.

As I say, after much deliberation, I decided that it was okay... but only reluctantly (the context of football must allow for at least some expression of excitement)


You have to be fucking with us. There is no way you're serious about this shit.....

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Postby Shofercia » Wed May 30, 2018 8:05 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:During the very recent Real Madrid vs Liverpool football match, the final game of 2018 UEFA Champions League Final... the score was 0-1 in favour of Real Madrid when suddenly Liverpool scored a point and it became 1-1.

At that moment Liverpool's coach Jurgen Klopp turned around, and issued a bunch of karate/punch moves at the air. These moves were executed rapidly, forcefully, and with uninterrupted progression (if there had been a ghost standing there it may have been obliterated by the said karate/punch moves).

Now the discussion issue I want to bring up from this is as follows:

Was this conduct appropriate? Is it acceptable for a football coach, when his team scores a point, to turn around and then launch a series of karate/punch moves at the air?

Or does such conduct cross the line into the improper promotion of violence?

Please discuss.

After a great deal of deliberation, I have personally reached the conclusion that it is borderline acceptable. It is true that the coach has the moral authority to lead by example and shouldn't be promoting violence (and it is true that millions of people, including children, are watching on TV)... but at the same time, it is a football game and everyone can get a little excited. I consider his conduct in this case acceptable because in part because it was 1-1. If the goal had turned say, a 2-1 into a 3-1 then maybe it wouldn't be okay.


Yes, it was acceptable. The only people from that match who should be punished, are Loris Karius and Sergio Ramos.
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Postby Aclion » Wed May 30, 2018 11:02 pm

What an idiotic controversy.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 31, 2018 12:23 am

Shofercia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:During the very recent Real Madrid vs Liverpool football match, the final game of 2018 UEFA Champions League Final... the score was 0-1 in favour of Real Madrid when suddenly Liverpool scored a point and it became 1-1.

At that moment Liverpool's coach Jurgen Klopp turned around, and issued a bunch of karate/punch moves at the air. These moves were executed rapidly, forcefully, and with uninterrupted progression (if there had been a ghost standing there it may have been obliterated by the said karate/punch moves).

Now the discussion issue I want to bring up from this is as follows:

Was this conduct appropriate? Is it acceptable for a football coach, when his team scores a point, to turn around and then launch a series of karate/punch moves at the air?

Or does such conduct cross the line into the improper promotion of violence?

Please discuss.

After a great deal of deliberation, I have personally reached the conclusion that it is borderline acceptable. It is true that the coach has the moral authority to lead by example and shouldn't be promoting violence (and it is true that millions of people, including children, are watching on TV)... but at the same time, it is a football game and everyone can get a little excited. I consider his conduct in this case acceptable because in part because it was 1-1. If the goal had turned say, a 2-1 into a 3-1 then maybe it wouldn't be okay.


Yes, it was acceptable. The only people from that match who should be punished, are Loris Karius and Sergio Ramos.


Wasn't Karius the goal keeper?
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu May 31, 2018 2:25 am

Shofercia wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:During the very recent Real Madrid vs Liverpool football match, the final game of 2018 UEFA Champions League Final... the score was 0-1 in favour of Real Madrid when suddenly Liverpool scored a point and it became 1-1.

At that moment Liverpool's coach Jurgen Klopp turned around, and issued a bunch of karate/punch moves at the air. These moves were executed rapidly, forcefully, and with uninterrupted progression (if there had been a ghost standing there it may have been obliterated by the said karate/punch moves).

Now the discussion issue I want to bring up from this is as follows:

Was this conduct appropriate? Is it acceptable for a football coach, when his team scores a point, to turn around and then launch a series of karate/punch moves at the air?

Or does such conduct cross the line into the improper promotion of violence?

Please discuss.

After a great deal of deliberation, I have personally reached the conclusion that it is borderline acceptable. It is true that the coach has the moral authority to lead by example and shouldn't be promoting violence (and it is true that millions of people, including children, are watching on TV)... but at the same time, it is a football game and everyone can get a little excited. I consider his conduct in this case acceptable because in part because it was 1-1. If the goal had turned say, a 2-1 into a 3-1 then maybe it wouldn't be okay.


Yes, it was acceptable. The only people from that match who should be punished, are Loris Karius and Sergio Ramos.


Karius did nothing wrong. According to the rules at least.

His performance was horrible.
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Postby Sovaal » Thu May 31, 2018 6:10 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Sovaal wrote:My fucking god. Are we really at this point where fucking air karate is promoting violence people? God fucking damn. Might as well ban books becuase it pushes a culture of slaying dragons and saving princesses and other bull.


Randomly killing apex predators is generally disastrous for the local ecosystem. We really shouldn't be encouraging it.
True, but we also have to keep in mind that where human and dragon ranges meet bad shit, such as the slaughtering of villagers and livestock and the kidnapping of princesses tends to happen.

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Sovaal wrote:My fucking god. Are we really at this point where fucking air karate is promoting violence people? God fucking damn. Might as well ban books becuase it pushes a culture of slaying dragons and saving princesses and other bull.


Well I'm not sure "promoting" is the right word (since it implies an intention) but its the word that came to mind

However, say a 9 year old is watching this on television or from the crowd. He sees Klopp perform these karate moves/punches at the air. They might get the impression that this is something they'd like to try too. And someone down the road could get hurt if its not calculated you know? Plus Klopp himself could have hit someone.

As I say, after much deliberation, I decided that it was okay... but only reluctantly (the context of football must allow for at least some expression of excitement)

Kids do it all the time. It’s called playing.

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Postby The Peoples of Xaer » Thu May 31, 2018 8:56 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:However, say a 9 year old is watching this on television or from the crowd. He sees Klopp perform these karate moves/punches at the air. They might get the impression that this is something they'd like to try too. And someone down the road could get hurt if its not calculated you know? Plus Klopp himself could have hit someone.

If a kid emulating some dude's victory dance results in that kid hurting someone else, then that's the fault of the kid's parents or legal guardian for not teaching the kid to use appropriate caution and making sure the space in which they are flailing their limbs about is clear of obstruction. And given Klopp is a grown man and presumably not blind, he similarly was aware that the space in which he was victory dancing was clear of other people before he flailed his limbs about.

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Postby Purpelia » Thu May 31, 2018 9:50 am

The Peoples of Xaer wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:However, say a 9 year old is watching this on television or from the crowd. He sees Klopp perform these karate moves/punches at the air. They might get the impression that this is something they'd like to try too. And someone down the road could get hurt if its not calculated you know? Plus Klopp himself could have hit someone.

If a kid emulating some dude's victory dance results in that kid hurting someone else, then that's the fault of the kid's parents or legal guardian for not teaching the kid to use appropriate caution and making sure the space in which they are flailing their limbs about is clear of obstruction. And given Klopp is a grown man and presumably not blind, he similarly was aware that the space in which he was victory dancing was clear of other people before he flailed his limbs about.

And even if not. Even if he outright turned around and beat someone up. Not even accidentally. If he went and did it on purpose. That still does not make it a deliberate act of pro violence propaganda. And that is what the OP is alleging.

It's especially ridiculous once you take into account the fact that the whole event is something most people would have only seen on a sports related channel. The sort of channels that also tend to air ultimate fighting, boxing, K1, MMA and other actually violent displays of physical violence. There are literally adverts for MMA being played during the half time break.


Bottom line here is simple. People are not monkeys. We don't do what we see. We think about what we see and do what we think is right. So if you see violence and than do violence that's on you and only on you.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 31, 2018 6:46 pm

Purpelia wrote:
The Peoples of Xaer wrote:If a kid emulating some dude's victory dance results in that kid hurting someone else, then that's the fault of the kid's parents or legal guardian for not teaching the kid to use appropriate caution and making sure the space in which they are flailing their limbs about is clear of obstruction. And given Klopp is a grown man and presumably not blind, he similarly was aware that the space in which he was victory dancing was clear of other people before he flailed his limbs about.

And even if not. Even if he outright turned around and beat someone up. Not even accidentally. If he went and did it on purpose. That still does not make it a deliberate act of pro violence propaganda. And that is what the OP is alleging.

It's especially ridiculous once you take into account the fact that the whole event is something most people would have only seen on a sports related channel. The sort of channels that also tend to air ultimate fighting, boxing, K1, MMA and other actually violent displays of physical violence. There are literally adverts for MMA being played during the half time break.


Bottom line here is simple. People are not monkeys. We don't do what we see. We think about what we see and do what we think is right. So if you see violence and than do violence that's on you and only on you.


Its not a deliberate act. But it has the foreseeable consequence of possibly being emulated by someone less responsible that its iteration on television ought to have been better thought out. There is a difference.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 31, 2018 6:48 pm

The Peoples of Xaer wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:However, say a 9 year old is watching this on television or from the crowd. He sees Klopp perform these karate moves/punches at the air. They might get the impression that this is something they'd like to try too. And someone down the road could get hurt if its not calculated you know? Plus Klopp himself could have hit someone.

If a kid emulating some dude's victory dance results in that kid hurting someone else, then that's the fault of the kid's parents or legal guardian for not teaching the kid to use appropriate caution and making sure the space in which they are flailing their limbs about is clear of obstruction. And given Klopp is a grown man and presumably not blind, he similarly was aware that the space in which he was victory dancing was clear of other people before he flailed his limbs about.


I'm sure the law wouldn't consider Klopp responsible (likely, it wouldn't consider the legal guardians responsible either).

But in a mechanical sense... if X inspired Y to happen and had X not happened Y wouldn't have happened... or even if X simply influenced Y to happen (among other things)... I think strictly speaking, X is partly or completely responsible.

Of course in real life, its hard to establish those types of causation but that doesn't mean the risk isn't there. That is to say, while its hard to prove in a court of law that Klopp may have influenced some future act of true violence, its not conclusive either way.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu May 31, 2018 6:49 pm

I’m sorry, is there an issue here? The coach was probably excited. No need to start wondering if this is appropriate or not. People get excited in such matches. He didn’t hurt anyone so I’m not sure what’s to discuss.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 31, 2018 6:50 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I’m sorry, is there an issue here? The coach was probably excited. No need to start wondering if this is appropriate or not. People get excited in such matches. He didn’t hurt anyone so I’m not sure what’s to discuss.


In the end, I determined that even though there may be harmful consequences down the road (such as others emulating it in a much less safe environment), I'm going to have to let this one slide because of many of the reasons you've stated.

But it definitely doesn't feel so clear cut.
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Postby Xadufell » Thu May 31, 2018 6:50 pm

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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 31, 2018 6:50 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Purpelia wrote:And even if not. Even if he outright turned around and beat someone up. Not even accidentally. If he went and did it on purpose. That still does not make it a deliberate act of pro violence propaganda. And that is what the OP is alleging.

It's especially ridiculous once you take into account the fact that the whole event is something most people would have only seen on a sports related channel. The sort of channels that also tend to air ultimate fighting, boxing, K1, MMA and other actually violent displays of physical violence. There are literally adverts for MMA being played during the half time break.


Bottom line here is simple. People are not monkeys. We don't do what we see. We think about what we see and do what we think is right. So if you see violence and than do violence that's on you and only on you.


Its not a deliberate act. But it has the foreseeable consequence of possibly being emulated by someone less responsible that its iteration on television ought to have been better thought out. There is a difference.


I assume you feel game of thrones was the worst example ever for the children? All that violence.....

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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu May 31, 2018 6:53 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:I’m sorry, is there an issue here? The coach was probably excited. No need to start wondering if this is appropriate or not. People get excited in such matches. He didn’t hurt anyone so I’m not sure what’s to discuss.


In the end, I determined that even though there may be harmful consequences down the road (such as others emulating it in a much less safe environment), I'm going to have to let this one slide because of many of the reasons you've stated.

But it definitely doesn't feel so clear cut.


He didn’t assault anyone. Had he done that and karate chopped players or spectators, then I would get you questioning his behavior. If he did that in a match, then I’d agree with you in questioning his intent. But for the time being, don’t take soccer games so seriously.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 31, 2018 6:54 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
Its not a deliberate act. But it has the foreseeable consequence of possibly being emulated by someone less responsible that its iteration on television ought to have been better thought out. There is a difference.


I assume you feel game of thrones was the worst example ever for the children? All that violence.....


Game of Thrones is a television show (with clearly fictional characters) and children don't generally watch it.

A live football match on television involving real people doing real things is another issue.
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Postby Infected Mushroom » Thu May 31, 2018 6:56 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
In the end, I determined that even though there may be harmful consequences down the road (such as others emulating it in a much less safe environment), I'm going to have to let this one slide because of many of the reasons you've stated.

But it definitely doesn't feel so clear cut.


He didn’t assault anyone. Had he done that and karate chopped players or spectators, then I would get you questioning his behavior. If he did that in a match, then I’d agree with you in questioning his intent. But for the time being, don’t take soccer games so seriously.


Why does he have to be assaulting real people and within the match itself for it to have an impact on the behaviour of others?

What he did was caught on camera regardless. I saw it from my living room.
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Postby Dormill and Stiura » Thu May 31, 2018 6:57 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
He didn’t assault anyone. Had he done that and karate chopped players or spectators, then I would get you questioning his behavior. If he did that in a match, then I’d agree with you in questioning his intent. But for the time being, don’t take soccer games so seriously.


Why does he have to be assaulting real people and within the match itself for it to have an impact on the behaviour of others?

What he did was caught on camera regardless. I saw it from my living room.

The fact you care about this enough to complain about it says more about your character than it does his.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 31, 2018 6:58 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
In the end, I determined that even though there may be harmful consequences down the road (such as others emulating it in a much less safe environment), I'm going to have to let this one slide because of many of the reasons you've stated.

But it definitely doesn't feel so clear cut.


He didn’t assault anyone. Had he done that and karate chopped players or spectators, then I would get you questioning his behavior. If he did that in a match, then I’d agree with you in questioning his intent. But for the time being, don’t take soccer games so seriously.


Not recently anyway.... :P

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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Thu May 31, 2018 6:59 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
He didn’t assault anyone. Had he done that and karate chopped players or spectators, then I would get you questioning his behavior. If he did that in a match, then I’d agree with you in questioning his intent. But for the time being, don’t take soccer games so seriously.


Why does he have to be assaulting real people and within the match itself for it to have an impact on the behaviour of others?

What he did was caught on camera regardless. I saw it from my living room.


And? You saw it. He got excited and karate chopped the air. Wow, how dangerous! Such questionable behavior! No one got hurt, he assaulted no one, and if a kid emulates him by karate chopping the air we’ll have a behavioral issue in our hands!! Oh noes, let’s police excitement on a soccer game.

Come on, Fungus. You’re making a mountain out of a molehill.
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