Capital Punishment for Abortion? Yes.

[Shazbotdom]

I comprehend it just fine.

You just don't comprehend the legal definition of murder and fail to understand that this has been the legal definition of murder for longer than Roe v. Wade has even been around. And if you want to make abortion illegal, you have to first take it to the courts. And have it work it's way all the way to the supreme court, and even as recent as the 90's, Roe v. Wade was upheld. Both of the supreme court cases had a large majority of the justices being Republican Appointed.

And then we'll just campaign in elections to put in place anti Roe v. Wade judges. The law is not as concrete as you make think it so.

You.....

You do realize that you don't elect Justices, right?

And, even those Republicans who appointed those Justices were anti-Roe v. Wade.

[San Macalin]

No. You define a fetus as having the same value as a person. For someone who preaches reading comprehension, you ought to try your own product sometime. (Oh no! I oppressed you again! I'm so sorry!)

I do yes. Just as you hold an infant to hold the same value in terms of worth of life as that of a twenty year old.

Well, do you base that view off of Biblical "morality," like so many other pro-birthers?

[San Macalin]

And then we'll just campaign in elections to put in place anti Roe v. Wade judges. The law is not as concrete as you make think it so.

You.....

You do realize that you don't elect Justices, right?

And, even those Republicans who appointed those Justices were anti-Roe v. Wade.

Besides, isn't he advocating for (gasp) ACTIVIST JUDGES!?!?

[Cranborne]

And then we'll just campaign in elections to put in place anti Roe v. Wade judges. The law is not as concrete as you make think it so.

You.....

You do realize that you don't elect Justices, right?

And, even those Republicans who appointed those Justices were anti-Roe v. Wade.

They aren't anymore however.

And indirectly they are elected via the party that is in power. The GOP ran partially on the language of putting in place someone agreeable to them as opposed to agreeable to the Democrats. It is only a matter of time before potential justices are patronized by either party.

[Roskian Federation]

You.....

You do realize that you don't elect Justices, right?

And, even those Republicans who appointed those Justices were anti-Roe v. Wade.

They aren't anymore however.

And indirectly they are elected via the party that is in power. The GOP ran partially on the language of putting in place someone agreeable to them as opposed to agreeable to the Democrats. It is only a matter of time before potential justices are patronized by either party.

problem is that
uh
single issue voting is another form of cancer that shouldn't be practiced when electing officials

[Cranborne]

I do yes. Just as you hold an infant to hold the same value in terms of worth of life as that of a twenty year old.

Well, do you base that view off of Biblical "morality," like so many other pro-birthers?

I base it off of holding that a child that is developing in the womb has as much a right to its life and existence as a child that has only just come out of the womb.

I will state that at least people like Peter Singer are more consistent with their views. I fully expect at some point for his views on this matter to gain more traction, rather unfortunately.

[Prusselanden]

I just think we can get a lot more done if we just go pro-choice because

1. We have bigger issues to talk about than abortion which really doesn't matter to our whole nation in the long term

and

2. It really. Doesn't matter.

3. The world's not going to end if we let it happen

4. Spending capital punishment on it would be petty and a waste of money.

[Cranborne]

They aren't anymore however.

And indirectly they are elected via the party that is in power. The GOP ran partially on the language of putting in place someone agreeable to them as opposed to agreeable to the Democrats. It is only a matter of time before potential justices are patronized by either party.

problem is that
uh
single issue voting is another form of cancer that shouldn't be practiced when electing officials

C'est la vie.

[Shazbotdom]

You.....

You do realize that you don't elect Justices, right?

And, even those Republicans who appointed those Justices were anti-Roe v. Wade.

They aren't anymore however.

And indirectly they are elected via the party that is in power. The GOP ran partially on the language of putting in place someone agreeable to them as opposed to agreeable to the Democrats. It is only a matter of time before potential justices are patronized by either party.

They have their appointment put before the Legislature.

And the Legislature approves or denies it with a simple majority.

Republicans can't even figure out several appointments to the Presidents Cabinet, let alone get someone legitimate put before Committee for the currently open Justice Seat. How many positions are still open and we are halfway through the 2nd year of this term? And how are you going to replace justices when they either have to A: Retire or B: Die.

[San Macalin]

Well, do you base that view off of Biblical "morality," like so many other pro-birthers?

I base it off of holding that a child that is developing in the womb has as much a right to its life and existence as a child that has only just come out of the womb.

I will state that at least people like Peter Singer are more consistent with their views. I fully expect at some point for his views on this matter to gain more traction, rather unfortunately.

Ah. Either way though, isn't it better for said child to be born when its parents are emotionally and financially ready to raise it well? Knowing that you were unwanted leads to some pretty messed up psychological issues, to say nothing of having a bad childhood due to incapable parenting.

[Cranborne]

They aren't anymore however.

And indirectly they are elected via the party that is in power. The GOP ran partially on the language of putting in place someone agreeable to them as opposed to agreeable to the Democrats. It is only a matter of time before potential justices are patronized by either party.

They have their appointment put before the Legislature.

And the Legislature approves or denies it with a simple majority.

Republicans can't even figure out several appointments to the Presidents Cabinet, let alone get someone legitimate put before Committee for the currently open Justice Seat. How many positions are still open and we are halfway through the 2nd year of this term? And how are you going to replace justices when they either have to A: Retire or B: Die.

1. I try to avoid voting for Republicans.
2. Keeping them in power. The Democrats were in control of the House for 40 years and had a near 30 year stretch in control of the Senate. You can easily fill up half of SCOTUS in those time frames, depending on when they align.

[Cranborne]

I base it off of holding that a child that is developing in the womb has as much a right to its life and existence as a child that has only just come out of the womb.

I will state that at least people like Peter Singer are more consistent with their views. I fully expect at some point for his views on this matter to gain more traction, rather unfortunately.

Ah. Either way though, isn't it better for said child to be born when its parents are emotionally and financially ready to raise it well? Knowing that you were unwanted leads to some pretty messed up psychological issues, to say nothing of having a bad childhood due to incapable parenting.

Ideally yes, but then again we have made the cost of living and that of raising a child outrageously expensive, something that desperately needs to be tackled.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Just on a side note: Cranborne, did you really put "wealthy" in your signature?

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Over the weekend, I whilst still pondering the issue in my last thread and how to better refine my proposal I was also thinking on some of the best ways on how to judge and punish those that seek out abortions and perform them. I came to the conclusion that since abortion is ending life, both the person getting the abortion and the abortionist should naturally be punished like others who unjustly take away human life - capital punishment. Now, of course some could at least understand punishing the abortionist in such a manner, even if they disagree, but the mother? Surely not?! But yes, in fact more so than that of the abortionist, for it is the expectant mother who is the ultimate cause of each case of abortion being conducted, though both deserve the same punishment. Of course, in many countries in the West we would have to criminalize abortion once again, hopefully sooner rather than later. However in other parts of the world I have been in contact with anti-murder activists on this subject and they are slowly but surely gaining more traction to enact such punishments. They will be ahead of us in the near future hopefully and act as a beacon of sorts for those of us here in the West.

You may be wondering if there are any instances in which abortion can be allowed: yes. If the mother's life is in danger and the child is unlikely to survive and continuing it to term will gravely endanger the mother, who is young and/or has few if any children of her own already, then it should be allowed much as we make difficult and unfortunate decisions with triage patients. C'est la vie. But those are the only instances in which it can be carried out.

Naturally, other measures should be put in place to discourage abortion from taking place to begin with: proper sex education, easy access to birth control, more efficient and less abusive foster and adoption services, welfare to take care of expectant mothers who are struggling, etc. But this punishment should still be in place for those who go through with this great evil, even after society making much accommodation for them.

Anyway, enough rambling for this is just a very long way in stating that I believe we should treat those who seek and give abortions the same as we would other murderers.

What do you all think?


P.S. Moderators, feel free to merge this with the other abortion thread if you deem it appropriate.

1. OH MY FUCKING LORD NO. A fetus doesn't become conscious until 24-30 weeks so as far as it knew if it were aborted before then (as is the case in the vast majority of abortions), it will have never subjectively knew it existed, and from a perspective of valuing human consciousness specifically as having the right to life it's no worse than using a contraceptive and not fertilising the egg.
2. The death penalty is crap anyway. It violates basic human rights, statistically does not deter crime. Criminals do NOT think about what punishment they could receive when they commit crimes. They think about how they're not going to get caught because they're at least not stupid enough to commit a crime knowing they will certainly get arrested and charged in most cases. And worse, as no justice system is 100% correct, innocent people will be convicted and executed. Innocent people will die.
3. A significant number of abortions happen because the mother was using contraception while having sex and said method of contraception failed (condoms can break, the pill can fail, etc.). In those cases, abortion is a back-up method of birth control. And before you say "Oh, but they should always take responsibility for the unborn baby", the child will be born into a family which is financially unprepared for them and did not want them (which can have a damaging influence on the child's mental health).
4. So, you expect to do this in, say, 60 years? On average, abortion laws around the world are moving in the wrong direction for this, with Ireland voting to legalise abortion until 12 weeks and pressure to legalise abortion in Latin America. Over time, abortion laws around the world have become more liberal - more countries have more liberal abortion laws in 2018 than did in 1958, and these countries where "activists are gaining traction to enact the death penalty for abortion" may well have legalised abortion by 2078.

[San Macalin]

Ah. Either way though, isn't it better for said child to be born when its parents are emotionally and financially ready to raise it well? Knowing that you were unwanted leads to some pretty messed up psychological issues, to say nothing of having a bad childhood due to incapable parenting.

Ideally yes, but then again we have made the cost of living and that of raising a child outrageously expensive, something that desperately needs to be tackled.

Yes, but many of these societal problems that make it so hard to have and raise children are very multifaceted and difficult to solve. If it was a quick fix, it probably would've been done by now. This is like saying, "Oh, your house's roof is leaking? Time to rebuild the roof entirely--oh, and move the house to the Sahara!" Both of those things take time and don't stop your furniture from getting waterlogged in the interim.

Anyway, I've got to sign off now. May come back later, may not.

[San Lumen]

Ah. Either way though, isn't it better for said child to be born when its parents are emotionally and financially ready to raise it well? Knowing that you were unwanted leads to some pretty messed up psychological issues, to say nothing of having a bad childhood due to incapable parenting.

Ideally yes, but then again we have made the cost of living and that of raising a child outrageously expensive, something that desperately needs to be tackled.

So would you force a woman who was raped or the victim of incest to carry the child to term of face the insane penalty of capital punishment?

Did you know that a large number of fertilized eggs never implant in the uterus for for reasons unknown? If life begins at conception I guess any woman whose had more then one period is a serial killer.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Ah. Either way though, isn't it better for said child to be born when its parents are emotionally and financially ready to raise it well? Knowing that you were unwanted leads to some pretty messed up psychological issues, to say nothing of having a bad childhood due to incapable parenting.

Ideally yes, but then again we have made the cost of living and that of raising a child outrageously expensive, something that desperately needs to be tackled.

Also, I'm guessing you want to force women to undergo childbirth. So, women should undergo 8 hours of some of the worst pain known to humans just because of a broken condom? Have you heard of the possible medical complications of childbirth such as vaginal tearing?

[NeoOasis]

Ideally yes, but then again we have made the cost of living and that of raising a child outrageously expensive, something that desperately needs to be tackled.

Also, I'm guessing you want to force women to undergo childbirth. So, women should undergo 8 hours of some of the worst pain known to humans just because of a broken condom? Have you heard of the possible medical complications of childbirth such as vaginal tearing?

And that's ignoring massive blood loss due to other issues, postpartum depression... all the more likely due to the less than stellar conditions, passed up economic opprotunities due to raising a child under outrageous expenses, as well as more psychological issues. Imagine a married man having to come to terms with having to raise a child that isn't his... or a single mother having to face the reality of raising a child on her own? Even giving up a child isn't going to be as nice and rosy as you paint it.

You speak in ideals, Cranborne, but I don't see you facing reality. How do you suggest a woman deals a baby by rape? How will the foster care system deal with said child? How will an abandoned child live with the fact that he was abandoned because he is unwanted? There will come a time when the kid still isn't adopted, and he will ask himself one question,

"Do they hate me?"

How do you suggest we deal with that?

That kid is in for a world of mental anguish that might just lead to him/her offing themselves. Cause ideally rarely is reality.

[Gospel Power]

Yes

[Grenartia]

We need abortion for capital punishment.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Yes

No. In fact, nations with penalties for abortion often prosecute women who naturally miscarry. And please read my earlier point proving why this is a bad idea.

[Cranborne]

Ideally yes, but then again we have made the cost of living and that of raising a child outrageously expensive, something that desperately needs to be tackled.

Also, I'm guessing you want to force women to undergo childbirth. So, women should undergo 8 hours of some of the worst pain known to humans just because of a broken condom? Have you heard of the possible medical complications of childbirth such as vaginal tearing?

I have yes.

[Cranborne]

Just on a side note: Cranborne, did you really put "wealthy" in your signature?

I have, yes.

[Dogmeat]

Yes

But the Bible says you can kill unruly children. And fetuses kick their mothers.

[Tondo Federation]

Capital punishment seems too extreme. Lifetime imprisonment would be a better alternative IMO for the woman. Reserve the capital punishment for the abortionists.