Religion and the LGBTQ community.

[Celledora]

that is great!

no, this is not good! people need to realize what the sinners are committing to, and that you must not be like them! Homosexuality is a sin, and you are a degenerate if you commit to it.

you do realize it's not a choice, right? it is not a sin. what is sinful is you being hateful.

[Benuty]

From what I understand, the main issue here is the question of what the purpose is of marriage and sexuality. Some theologians say that marriage and sexuality are only permitted for the purpose of reproduction and that celibacy is superior otherwise. I know there are also some Christian groups that still promote natalism, but it would be better just to ignore them.

Natalism? What the hell is that? Also celibacy sucks.

Not if you are Secretary Mattis.

[Diopolis]

From what I understand, the main issue here is the question of what the purpose is of marriage and sexuality. Some theologians say that marriage and sexuality are only permitted for the purpose of reproduction and that celibacy is superior otherwise. I know there are also some Christian groups that still promote natalism, but it would be better just to ignore them.

Natalism? What the hell is that? Also celibacy sucks.

Natalism is the position that childbirth is desirable and ought to be promoted.

[Celledora]

Then it doesn’t need to be on NSG. Or at the very least it doesn’t need to have its own topic

Well, it may not have been a very good OP, but I do think the discussion is worthwhile.

you are nice, thx

[Chill beats LLC]

I think that God makes us the way we are because that's the way he wants us to be. It's not up to people to "correct" God's choices through shit like "conversion therapy" and abuse and hate. God loves everyone. Jesus forgave God for what He did to Him, so why can't people just fucking deal with each other? Gay or not gay.

[Thermodolia]

Natalism? What the hell is that? Also celibacy sucks.

Natalism is the position that childbirth is desirable and ought to be promoted.

Natalism? What the hell is that? Also celibacy sucks.

Natalism is promoting sexual reproduction for the purpose of continuing the human race.

So how is that different from saying that marriage and sexuality are only permitted for the purpose of reproduction?

Also, celibacy's pretty cool imo

Maybe for you but it’s not for me. I don’t look down on people who are celibate but I’m not one of those people

[Celledora]

I think that God makes us the way we are because that's the way he wants us to be. It's not up to people to "correct" God's choices through shit like "conversion therapy" and abuse and hate. God loves everyone. Jesus forgave God for what He did to Him, so why can't people just fucking deal with each other? Gay or not gay.

THANK YOU SO EFFING MUCH. words of wisdom right there.

[Thermodolia]

Natalism? What the hell is that? Also celibacy sucks.

Not if you are Secretary Mattis.

True. He probably has to or he’d be dead by drowning in poon.

[Diopolis]

As an LGBT Catholic, I can say with confidence that acting on homosexual impulses is absolutely a choice.

Yes but homosexuality itself isn’t a choice, and that’s according to your on religion

Yes, of course it isn't a choice to have such inclinations. But I can't think of any religions off the top of my head that thinks having homosexual inclinations to be sinful, so it's rather disingenuous to say "a religious condemnation of sodomy(religious definitions of sodomy can be rather broader than a typical secular one) are homophobic because homosexuality isn't a choice". What's actually being discussed is the religious view that sexual acts committed between two men or two women is sinful; representing it as "religions condemn the state of having an inclination or desire to homosexual acts" is rather dishonest, to say the least.

[Thermodolia]

Yes but homosexuality itself isn’t a choice, and that’s according to your on religion

Yes, of course it isn't a choice to have such inclinations. But I can't think of any religions off the top of my head that thinks having homosexual inclinations to be sinful, so it's rather disingenuous to say "a religious condemnation of sodomy(religious definitions of sodomy can be rather broader than a typical secular one) are homophobic because homosexuality isn't a choice". What's actually being discussed is the religious view that sexual acts committed between two men or two women is sinful; representing it as "religions condemn the state of having an inclination or desire to homosexual acts" is rather dishonest, to say the least.

There are a few crazy evangelical churches who believe even that admitting you are gay is sinful. Granted these are few in numbers but they tend to be the ones that run the “Pray the gay away” camps

[Diopolis]

Natalism is the position that childbirth is desirable and ought to be promoted.

Natalism is promoting sexual reproduction for the purpose of continuing the human race.

So how is that different from saying that marriage and sexuality are only permitted for the purpose of reproduction?

It's not. He was probably trying to distinguish between religious opposition to birth control and the quiverfull thing(which is dying now anyways- I find it hilarious that secular liberals are always panicking about fads among ultra-religious people that are on their way out).

[Diopolis]

Yes, of course it isn't a choice to have such inclinations. But I can't think of any religions off the top of my head that thinks having homosexual inclinations to be sinful, so it's rather disingenuous to say "a religious condemnation of sodomy(religious definitions of sodomy can be rather broader than a typical secular one) are homophobic because homosexuality isn't a choice". What's actually being discussed is the religious view that sexual acts committed between two men or two women is sinful; representing it as "religions condemn the state of having an inclination or desire to homosexual acts" is rather dishonest, to say the least.

There are a few crazy evangelical churches who believe even that admitting you are gay is sinful. Granted these are few in numbers but they tend to be the ones that run the “Pray the gay away” camps

Well, yeah, but most of the discussion seems to be focused around groups like Catholics, mormons, SBC, etc which hold a rather more mainstream view.

[Celledora]

Yes but homosexuality itself isn’t a choice, and that’s according to your on religion

Yes, of course it isn't a choice to have such inclinations. But I can't think of any religions off the top of my head that thinks having homosexual inclinations to be sinful, so it's rather disingenuous to say "a religious condemnation of sodomy(religious definitions of sodomy can be rather broader than a typical secular one) are homophobic because homosexuality isn't a choice". What's actually being discussed is the religious view that sexual acts committed between two men or two women is sinful; representing it as "religions condemn the state of having an inclination or desire to homosexual acts" is rather dishonest, to say the least.

some stricter followers of religion decide themselves that homosexuality is a sin.

[Dylar]

Jesus forgave God for what He did to Him

Well, first off, Jesus is God. Secondly, God did not nail Jesus to the cross. Thirdly, Jesus forgave the other criminals that were crucified with him.

[Bienenhalde]

Natalism is promoting sexual reproduction for the purpose of continuing the human race.

So how is that different from saying that marriage and sexuality are only permitted for the purpose of reproduction?
[/quote]
While the two views coincide, natalists generally would not promote celibacy as an alternative to marriage.

[Chill beats LLC]

Natalism is promoting sexual reproduction for the purpose of continuing the human race.

So how is that different from saying that marriage and sexuality are only permitted for the purpose of reproduction?

While the two views coincide, natalists generally would not promote celibacy as an alternative to marriage.[/quote]
Starting to get a little off topic, guys.

[Diopolis]

Yes, of course it isn't a choice to have such inclinations. But I can't think of any religions off the top of my head that thinks having homosexual inclinations to be sinful, so it's rather disingenuous to say "a religious condemnation of sodomy(religious definitions of sodomy can be rather broader than a typical secular one) are homophobic because homosexuality isn't a choice". What's actually being discussed is the religious view that sexual acts committed between two men or two women is sinful; representing it as "religions condemn the state of having an inclination or desire to homosexual acts" is rather dishonest, to say the least.

some stricter followers of religion decide themselves that homosexuality is a sin.

Kind of but not really.
I'm technically LGBT, and I belong to a church you would categorize as fundy(we're not, technically, fundamentalists, but we're very conservative YEC's, so close enough for government work). Most people don't even talk about homosexuality- temptations, or at least unusual temptations, are simply not discussed very often, and if you walk around talking about your homosexuality you'll be seen very similarly to that guy who's always talking about his hemorrhoids. But there are some people everyone pretty much knows are gay/bi/whatever, or strongly suspect it, they just don't talk about it in public. I've never run into any implications I must be sinning.

[Bienenhalde]

Starting to get a little off topic, guys.

It is not off topic: I was trying to explain the reason for religious opposition to same-sex sexual relationships.

[Hakons]

Yes, of course it isn't a choice to have such inclinations. But I can't think of any religions off the top of my head that thinks having homosexual inclinations to be sinful, so it's rather disingenuous to say "a religious condemnation of sodomy(religious definitions of sodomy can be rather broader than a typical secular one) are homophobic because homosexuality isn't a choice". What's actually being discussed is the religious view that sexual acts committed between two men or two women is sinful; representing it as "religions condemn the state of having an inclination or desire to homosexual acts" is rather dishonest, to say the least.

some stricter followers of religion decide themselves that homosexuality is a sin.

"Stricter" Christians follow God's moral law, which forbids homosexual actions. I do agree that some Christians do an awful job at distinguishing between simply being homosexual and actuslly acting on it. As we know from our Savior, one of the most important things for a Christian to do is love other people, and this definitely includes loving homosexual people.

[Dylar]

but we're very conservative YEC's

Wait, aren't you Catholic?

[Zone 71]

I think that God makes us the way we are because that's the way he wants us to be. It's not up to people to "correct" God's choices through shit like "conversion therapy" and abuse and hate. God loves everyone. Jesus forgave God for what He did to Him, so why can't people just fucking deal with each other? Gay or not gay.

What's wrong with conversion therapy? Sure, conversion therapy often employs electroshock therapy, exposure to heterosexual pornography, and the forceful submission to a same-gender heterosexual role model... and sure, there is no federal legislation in America preventing minors from receiving this tortu- therapy... and sure, conversion therapy has a success rate of around 35%... and sure, it leaves its victims, oftentimes, with depression, thoughts of suicide, and habits of self-harm... and sure, there are a number of people known to have committed suicide from the trauma received from this form of tortu- therapy... but what's the big deal? I don't see anything wrong with the idea of the Church maintaining the belief that homosexuality and homosexual activities are a sin.

[Auze]

Jesus forgave God for what He did to Him

Well, first off, Jesus is God.

We disagree, but that's beside the point.

[Dylar]

Well, first off, Jesus is God.

We disagree, but that's beside the point.

Mormon Wars II: Electric Boogaloo on the CDT when?

[Diopolis]

but we're very conservative YEC's

Wait, aren't you Catholic?

Yes.

[Auze]

We disagree, but that's beside the point.

Mormon Wars II: Electric Boogaloo on the CDT when?

Actually, it would be Mormon Wars III... or maybe IV. Anyways, not until we get a sizable number of Non-Trinitarians to make it a fair fight.

I think that God makes us the way we are because that's the way he wants us to be. It's not up to people to "correct" God's choices through shit like "conversion therapy" and abuse and hate. God loves everyone. Jesus forgave God for what He did to Him, so why can't people just fucking deal with each other? Gay or not gay.

What's wrong with conversion therapy? Sure, conversion therapy often employs electroshock therapy, exposure to heterosexual pornography, and the forceful submission to a same-gender heterosexual role model... and sure, there is no federal legislation in America preventing minors from receiving this tortu- therapy... and sure, conversion therapy has a success rate of around 35%... and sure, it leaves its victims, oftentimes, with depression, thoughts of suicide, and habits of self-harm... and sure, there are a number of people known to have committed suicide from the trauma received from this form of tortu- therapy... but what's the big deal? I don't see anything wrong with the idea of the Church maintaining the belief that homosexuality and homosexual activities are a sin.

No mainstream church supports conversion therapy, and almost none have in the last 80 years.