Religion and the LGBTQ community.

[Kubumba Tribe]

What's "Muslim-moderate" supposed to mean?

Badly phrased; many apologies.

I meant "liberal". Akin to liberal Christians. I was typing quickly. I never meant to cause offence.

Ok, thx for the clarification.
Now what does "liberal Muslim" mean?

[United Muscovite Nations]

What's "Muslim-moderate" supposed to mean?

Badly phrased; many apologies.

I meant "liberal". Akin to liberal Christians. I was typing quickly. I never meant to cause offence.

What Muslim countries on there are liberal in that sense? And which weren't included in that?

[Vassenor]

You haven't explained in what way this is actually a private commission though. Or how that actually makes it OK to deny a service he would provide to one person to another (which is why your photography analogy falls down - he wasn't being asked to do something he wouldn't normally do).

Gay couple walks into the bakery. Asks for a cake for their wedding. Gets shut down before going into the design phase(which would be the private commission) because the baker didn't want to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding(something that he normally does not do). He says that the couple could buy some of his pre-made goods(public accommodation), though.

So where does it say he normally does not do that?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Badly phrased; many apologies.

I meant "liberal". Akin to liberal Christians. I was typing quickly. I never meant to cause offence.

What Muslim countries on there are liberal in that sense?

Most Muslim-majority countries' governments don't even try to rule by the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.

[Dylar]

Gay couple walks into the bakery. Asks for a cake for their wedding. Gets shut down before going into the design phase(which would be the private commission) because the baker didn't want to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding(something that he normally does not do). He says that the couple could buy some of his pre-made goods(public accommodation), though.

So where does it say he normally does not do that?

Considering that he's Christian and doesn't agree with gay weddings, it can be assumed that he normally does not bake cakes for gay weddings.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Gay couple walks into the bakery. Asks for a cake for their wedding. Gets shut down before going into the design phase(which would be the private commission) because the baker didn't want to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding(something that he normally does not do). He says that the couple could buy some of his pre-made goods(public accommodation), though.

So where does it say he normally does not do that?

Here:

(something that he normally does not do)

[Vassenor]

So where does it say he normally does not do that?

Considering that he's Christian and doesn't agree with gay weddings, it can be assumed that he normally does not bake cakes for gay weddings.

Assumptions and assertions are not evidence in and of themselves.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Examples?

Depends.

How broadly we defining art here?

Creations for expressing an idea or being aesthetically pleasing.

[Dylar]

Considering that he's Christian and doesn't agree with gay weddings, it can be assumed that he normally does not bake cakes for gay weddings.

Assumptions and assertions are not evidence in and of themselves.

True, but how many gay people do you know of who got custom-made wedding cakes for their weddings from the baker?

[The Free Joy State]

Badly phrased; many apologies.

I meant "liberal". Akin to liberal Christians. I was typing quickly. I never meant to cause offence.

Ok, thx for the clarification.
Now what does "liberal Muslim" mean?

I am not as versed in Islam as I am in Christianity, but I generally classify a liberal believer of any religion as one who examines the origins of faith, allowing for more diverse interpretations -- where supportable -- and embracing peoples who may have been traditionally excluded, while upholding the basic covenants.

Like, in Christianity, reassessing whether 1Corinths 6:9-10 means what its traditionally been thought to mean or whether it can be interpreted differently, which allows Churches to embrace LGBT people, while still upholding the command to love one another, judge not lest ye be judged and so on.

I'm sorry I can only speak in general terms. I haven't studied Islam since high school RE.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Considering that he's Christian and doesn't agree with gay weddings, it can be assumed that he normally does not bake cakes for gay weddings.

Assumptions and assertions are not evidence in and of themselves.

Do you know a guy who commissioned a wedding cake from him or something?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Ok, thx for the clarification.
Now what does "liberal Muslim" mean?

I am not as versed in Islam as I am in Christianity, but I general classify a liberal believer of any religion as one who examines the origins of faith, allowing for more diverse interpretations and embracing peoples who may have been traditionally excluded, while upholding the basic covenants.

Like, in Christianity, reassessing whether 1Corinths 6:9-10 means what its traditionally been thought to mean or whether it can be interpreted differently, which allows Churches to embrace LGBT people, while still upholding the command to love one another, judge not lest ye be judged and so on.

I'm sorry I can only speak in general terms. I haven't studied Islam since high school RE.

So a hypocrite.
In Al-Islam, the best interpretation we have is from the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS), and we have the Holy Qur'an, so we follow those. The scholars who gain knowledge and teach Al-Islam aren't supposed to "interpret it in a new way", because that could lead to being astray from what Al-Islam is supposed to be.

[The Free Joy State]

I am not as versed in Islam as I am in Christianity, but I general classify a liberal believer of any religion as one who examines the origins of faith, allowing for more diverse interpretations and embracing peoples who may have been traditionally excluded, while upholding the basic covenants.

Like, in Christianity, reassessing whether 1Corinths 6:9-10 means what its traditionally been thought to mean or whether it can be interpreted differently, which allows Churches to embrace LGBT people, while still upholding the command to love one another, judge not lest ye be judged and so on.

I'm sorry I can only speak in general terms. I haven't studied Islam since high school RE.

So a hypocrite.

I don't see the scholars who accept that the interpretation may have always been wrong as hypocrites. Unless sincerely seeking truth is hypocritical?

Which I don't see how it can be, unless the thought of people seeking facts for themselves is somehow frightening for some conservative religions. Facts should be able to stand the rigours of analysis.

In Al-Islam, the best interpretation we have is from the Prophet Muhammad (SAWS), and we have the Holy Qur'an, so we follow those. The scholars who gain knowledge and teach Al-Islam aren't supposed to "interpret it in a new way", because that could lead to being astray from what Al-Islam is supposed to be.

Ah, I saw this late.

You see, mistranslation is more than plausible in the Bible (because it does happen), so checking that you're using the right interpretation is very valid in Christianity.

[Alvecia]

Depends.

How broadly we defining art here?

Creations for expressing an idea or being aesthetically pleasing.

Moderately broadly then.

So literally anything anyone makes. All it takes is a claim of expression and it is art.

[Internationalist Bastard]

So here’s the question
I’m trans, which makes me a woman. I married a man. Would I be able to get a cake?

[Internationalist Bastard]

Creations for expressing an idea or being aesthetically pleasing.

Moderately broadly then.

So literally anything anyone makes. All it takes is a claim of expression and it is art.

I mean yeah, how do you classify art?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Creations for expressing an idea or being aesthetically pleasing.

Moderately broadly then.

So literally anything anyone makes.

Nope.

All it takes is a claim of expression and it is art.

That's all it takes though.

[Dylar]

So here’s the question
I’m trans, which makes me a woman. I married a man. Would I be able to get a cake?

...Yes?

As long as you don't tell the baker that you're trans.

[San Lumen]

So here’s the question
I’m trans, which makes me a woman. I married a man. Would I be able to get a cake?

...Yes?

As long as you don't tell the baker that you're trans.

what business should be allowed to discriminate in your view?

[The Parkus Empire]

Sure. Not baking a cake isn't going to hurt the interracial couple in the slightest. Quick question for you, actually: Is a wedding cake an essential service necessary for one's survival?

No it isn't but why should discrimination be ok?

Why should homosexuality be?

Maybe you should practice what you preach and not try to legislate your personal morals.

[Internationalist Bastard]

So here’s the question
I’m trans, which makes me a woman. I married a man. Would I be able to get a cake?

...Yes?

As long as you don't tell the baker that you're trans.

But what if the baker can tell?

[Dylar]

...Yes?

As long as you don't tell the baker that you're trans.

what business should be allowed to discriminate in your view?

I. Just. Told. You

Anyone who does not provide a service essential to one's survival. So hotels are a no, because shelter is another basic human need and if you're visiting another city or a state where none of your friends or family live to provide you with a place to stay during your visit, you obviously need shelter.

[Internationalist Bastard]

No it isn't but why should discrimination be ok?

Why should homosexuality be?

Maybe you should practice what you preach and not try to legislate your personal morals.

Actually I agree with the court ruling. I just think it’s asshole thing to do

[San Lumen]

No it isn't but why should discrimination be ok?

Why should homosexuality be?

Maybe you should practice what you preach and not try to legislate your personal morals.

Homosexuality isn't a choice its who you are. I am not trying to legislate my morals.

[Dylar]

Why should homosexuality be?

Maybe you should practice what you preach and not try to legislate your personal morals.

Homosexuality isn't a choice its who you are. I am not trying to legislate my morals.

Debatable.

I believe it's a mix of nature and nurture. Genetics play a role, but so does society