Religion and the LGBTQ community.

[Vassenor]

Having a business means you serve all or none at all unless your a private club. Would you be ok with a store or restaurant owner that had a policy of "Only heterosexual white people are allowed."?

Really? Then please do give my dad a call and try to explain to him that he needs to be forced to take pictures for weddings despite the fact he doesn't want to take wedding pictures and instead wants to focus on cosplay photography.

I'd be fine with a restaurant discriminating against heterosexual people. Plenty of other restaurants in the city to go to anyway. As for a store, they wouldn't be able to do that as they provide services that are essential to my survival such as food, water, and clothing. Furthermore, your argument is a strawman as a restaurant and a grocery store aren't commission-based services. A bakery and a photography studio are commissioned-base services and as such, can choose what commissions they can accept.

Oh there we go with the "it's not really discrimination if there are other options" spiel. Everybody drink.

[Dylar]

Really? Then please do give my dad a call and try to explain to him that he needs to be forced to take pictures for weddings despite the fact he doesn't want to take wedding pictures and instead wants to focus on cosplay photography.

I'd be fine with a restaurant discriminating against heterosexual people. Plenty of other restaurants in the city to go to anyway. As for a store, they wouldn't be able to do that as they provide services that are essential to my survival such as food, water, and clothing. Furthermore, your argument is a strawman as a restaurant and a grocery store aren't commission-based services. A bakery and a photography studio are commissioned-base services and as such, can choose what commissions they can accept.

If a bakery said Only whites allowed you'd be perfectly fine with it?

Yes. Because of the fact that it is a commissioned based service that does not hinder another person's survival. Which is why "Whites only" hospitals, schools, police stations, fire stations, power companies, or any other essential service is a big no-no.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No, but forcing the baker to bake a cake for a wedding that he totally disagrees with will, in the end, start forcing other Christians who own commission-based businesses to attend other events that they are vehemently against. An example would be a Black Mass (Satanic version of the Mass where they desecrate the Body of Christ). Would you force a Christian photographer to attend a Black Mass to take pictures despite the fact that he is attending something that goes against everything he believes in?

Having a business means you serve all or none at all unless your a private club.

Not art businesses.

[Dylar]

Really? Then please do give my dad a call and try to explain to him that he needs to be forced to take pictures for weddings despite the fact he doesn't want to take wedding pictures and instead wants to focus on cosplay photography.

I'd be fine with a restaurant discriminating against heterosexual people. Plenty of other restaurants in the city to go to anyway. As for a store, they wouldn't be able to do that as they provide services that are essential to my survival such as food, water, and clothing. Furthermore, your argument is a strawman as a restaurant and a grocery store aren't commission-based services. A bakery and a photography studio are commissioned-base services and as such, can choose what commissions they can accept.

Oh there we go with the "it's not really discrimination if there are other options" spiel. Everybody drink.

Did you miss reading this part or do you usually ignore it whenever I bring it up?

Furthermore, your argument is a strawman as a restaurant and a grocery store aren't commission-based services. A bakery and a photography studio are commissioned-base services and as such, can choose what commissions they can accept.

[Alvecia]

Having a business means you serve all or none at all unless your a private club.

Not art businesses.

Depends on the business. And the art.

[San Lumen]

If a bakery said Only whites allowed you'd be perfectly fine with it?

Yes. Because of the fact that it is a commissioned based service that does not hinder another person's survival. Which is why "Whites only" hospitals, schools, police stations, fire stations, power companies, or any other essential service is a big no-no.

Does your father do wedding photos? If not no one can force him to do it if its not his business.

Why shouldn't they be able to refuse service if they are a racist or homophobic? Aren't you forcing them to serve people they dont like? a power company or police or fire station could never refuse to serve someone.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Not art businesses.

Depends on the business. And the art.

Examples?

[Alvecia]

Depends on the business. And the art.

Examples?

Depends.

How broadly we defining art here?

[Vassenor]

Oh there we go with the "it's not really discrimination if there are other options" spiel. Everybody drink.

Did you miss reading this part or do you usually ignore it whenever I bring it up?

Furthermore, your argument is a strawman as a restaurant and a grocery store aren't commission-based services. A bakery and a photography studio are commissioned-base services and as such, can choose what commissions they can accept.

You haven't explained in what way this is actually a private commission though. Or how that actually makes it OK to deny a service he would provide to one person to another (which is why your photography analogy falls down - he wasn't being asked to do something he wouldn't normally do).

[Dylar]

Yes. Because of the fact that it is a commissioned based service that does not hinder another person's survival. Which is why "Whites only" hospitals, schools, police stations, fire stations, power companies, or any other essential service is a big no-no.

Does your father do wedding photos? If not no one can force him to do it if its not his business.

Why shouldn't they be able to refuse service if they are a racist or homophobic? Aren't you forcing them to serve people they dont like? a power company or police or fire station could never refuse to serve someone.

He did. Then he stopped because he just doesn't want to do it anymore and instead wanted to focus on family photoshoots, senior graduation pics, and cosplay photography. But now he just does cosplay photography.

Simple. Grocery stores provide basic essentials for the consumer's survival. Food, drink, clothing and appliances to make life around the house easier. While a hospital provides care for the sick and injured so that they can continue to live. A school provides education so that the students can get better paying jobs so that they can go out and live on their own. All these are essential for one's survival, and if someone working in those areas have a big problem with that, then it's time for a career change.

[Dylar]

Did you miss reading this part or do you usually ignore it whenever I bring it up?

You haven't explained in what way this is actually a private commission though. Or how that actually makes it OK to deny a service he would provide to one person to another (which is why your photography analogy falls down - he wasn't being asked to do something he wouldn't normally do).

Gay couple walks into the bakery. Asks for a cake for their wedding. Gets shut down before going into the design phase(which would be the private commission) because the baker didn't want to bake a wedding cake for a gay wedding(something that he normally does not do). He says that the couple could buy some of his pre-made goods(public accommodation), though.

[San Lumen]

Does your father do wedding photos? If not no one can force him to do it if its not his business.

Why shouldn't they be able to refuse service if they are a racist or homophobic? Aren't you forcing them to serve people they dont like? a power company or police or fire station could never refuse to serve someone.

He did. Then he stopped because he just doesn't want to do it anymore and instead wanted to focus on family photoshoots, senior graduation pics, and cosplay photography. But now he just does cosplay photography.

Simple. Grocery stores provide basic essentials for the consumer's survival. Food, drink, clothing and appliances to make life around the house easier. While a hospital provides care for the sick and injured so that they can continue to live. A school provides education so that the students can get better paying jobs so that they can go out and live on their own. All these are essential for one's survival, and if someone working in those areas have a big problem with that, then it's time for a career change.

Therefore no one can force him to do wedding photos. He could simply say I dont do wedding photography and that would be the end of it.

Who should be allowed to discriminate? Should a major hotel chain or any hotel be able to say we dont serve same sex couples?

[The Free Joy State]

The numbers aren't so much different to Britain (it's on page 17):



Bearing in mind they didn't break down the types of Anglican (Evangelical, vs. Mainline and so on -- meaning that the 36% acceptance rate of Evangelicals got lumped in with the 66% acceptance rate of Mainline Protestants), and there's only a 5% difference on Catholics, I'd say the figures for Pew are pretty accurate, on the Christian faiths.

Britain isn't very representative of the world's population either.

Point us to statistics that you consider representative of the world's population.

Because, apparently, comparative samples from two different countries does not at least indicate a trend.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Britain isn't very representative of the world's population either.

Point us to statistics that you consider representative of the world's population.

Because, apparently, comparative samples from two different countries does not show a trend.

Because those countries are both western countries, here's a more representative sample, for example, from Muslim countries:

[The Free Joy State]

Point us to statistics that you consider representative of the world's population.

Because, apparently, comparative samples from two different countries does not show a trend.

Because those countries are both western countries, here's a more representative sample, for example, from Muslim countries:

Talk about stacking the deck!

Compare Western countries with the most hardline countries in the world (and Uganda is predominantly Christian)

You consider that an accurate representation of what people globally -- all across the world, including western countries, atheist-countries, Hindu countries, Muslim-moderate countries -- really think of homosexuality?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Point us to statistics that you consider representative of the world's population.

Because, apparently, comparative samples from two different countries does not show a trend.

Because those countries are both western countries, here's a more representative sample, for example, from Muslim countries:

>Muslim countries
Since when were Uganda, DRC, Mozambique, Liberia, Cameroon and Kenya 'Muslim' countries?

[San Lumen]

Point us to statistics that you consider representative of the world's population.

Because, apparently, comparative samples from two different countries does not show a trend.

Because those countries are both western countries, here's a more representative sample, for example, from Muslim countries:

And that is representative how?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Because those countries are both western countries, here's a more representative sample, for example, from Muslim countries:

Talk about stacking the deck!

Compare Western countries with the most hardline countries in the world.

You consider that an accurate representation of what people globally -- all across the world, including western countries, atheist-countries, Hindu countries, Muslim-moderate countries -- really think of homosexuality?

What's "Muslim-moderate" supposed to mean?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Your data implied that the Muslims are fairly accepting of homosexuality, it also implied the same of Hindus, both of which are very misleading. It's much more accurate to find data from countries which are majority that religion to see what is thought of something in those religions.

Also what "moderate Muslim countries"?

[Dylar]

He did. Then he stopped because he just doesn't want to do it anymore and instead wanted to focus on family photoshoots, senior graduation pics, and cosplay photography. But now he just does cosplay photography.

Simple. Grocery stores provide basic essentials for the consumer's survival. Food, drink, clothing and appliances to make life around the house easier. While a hospital provides care for the sick and injured so that they can continue to live. A school provides education so that the students can get better paying jobs so that they can go out and live on their own. All these are essential for one's survival, and if someone working in those areas have a big problem with that, then it's time for a career change.

Therefore no one can force him to do wedding photos. He could simply say I dont do wedding photography and that would be the end of it.

Who should be allowed to discriminate? Should a major hotel chain or any hotel be able to say we dont serve same sex couples?

And then someone could say, "Oh, but you did it for person A a while ago, why not me? This is discrimination!"

Anyone who does not provide a service essential to one's survival. So hotels are a no, because shelter is another basic human need and if you're visiting another city or a state where none of your friends or family live to provide you with a place to stay during your visit, you obviously need shelter.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Because those countries are both western countries, here's a more representative sample, for example, from Muslim countries:

And that is representative how?

It's more representative of what Muslims think than a poll done in Britain and the US.

[San Lumen]

And that is representative how?

It's more representative of what Muslims think than a poll done in Britain and the US.

A majority of people in the UK and US support LGBT rights

[The Free Joy State]

Talk about stacking the deck!

Compare Western countries with the most hardline countries in the world.

You consider that an accurate representation of what people globally -- all across the world, including western countries, atheist-countries, Hindu countries, Muslim-moderate countries -- really think of homosexuality?

What's "Muslim-moderate" supposed to mean?

Badly phrased; many apologies.

I meant "liberal". Akin to liberal Christians. I was typing quickly. I never meant to cause offence.

[Kubumba Tribe]

It's more representative of what Muslims think than a poll done in Britain and the US.

A majority of people in the UK and US support LGBT rights

He's talking about Muslims, not non-Muslim Americans and Brits.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's more representative of what Muslims think than a poll done in Britain and the US.

A majority of people in the UK and US support LGBT rights

That wasn't what was disputed though, what I was disputing is that the views of the religious groups in Britain and the US aren't representative of religious groups throughout the world.