Religion and the LGBTQ community.

[NewLakotah]

*yawn* Well it would be kind of hard to stop them, wouldn't it? How could you even prove they did? The fact is they banned giving them a period of silence before class to do it.

They didn't.

They just banned passing laws allowing such a thing, but they haven't banned it.

So they banned laws allowing them to pray, but not allowing schools to not allow kids the ability to pray...

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's also ridiculously dumb to argue this point Parkus is trying to argue, considering I still went to a school that allowed moments of silence/prayer back in 2007.

From when I graduated high school, in 2014, moments of silence before class was not allowed, praying at any time was not allowed, except in private or special occasions. For example the school I went to had a flagpole prayer thing, and it caused a minor uproar. But since my school was a charter school, apparently it wasnt beholden to all the rules that Public schools were, since several public schools in my area banned those, despite them taking place long before the school day actually began.

Where was this? Because I live in Texas and we still hold prayer and moments of silence.

[NewLakotah]

From when I graduated high school, in 2014, moments of silence before class was not allowed, praying at any time was not allowed, except in private or special occasions. For example the school I went to had a flagpole prayer thing, and it caused a minor uproar. But since my school was a charter school, apparently it wasnt beholden to all the rules that Public schools were, since several public schools in my area banned those, despite them taking place long before the school day actually began.

Where was this? Because I live in Texas and we still hold prayer and moments of silence.

State of Florida.

[Conserative Morality]

Where was this? Because I live in Texas and we still hold prayer and moments of silence.

Live in liberal Maryland here - as late as 2012 flagpole prayer groups were still a thing, though the school itself didn't endorse them.

[Bienenhalde]

Guys...I think this school prayer thing is getting to be off topic.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

They didn't.

They just banned passing laws allowing such a thing, but they haven't banned it.

So they banned laws allowing them to pray, but not allowing schools to not allow kids the ability to pray...

I mean, not allowing kids the ability to pray is radical, but no, they haven't struck that down.

If your state passed a law banning it they would have to answer in court about it though. And you can still bring a civil suit against the school for doing so if you think you have a strong case.

[Dylar]

Where was this? Because I live in Texas and we still hold prayer and moments of silence.

State of Florida.

Thats...surprising. Florida is very Christian. At least the places where I visit, which would be Central Florida.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So they banned laws allowing them to pray, but not allowing schools to not allow kids the ability to pray...

I mean, not allowing kids the ability to pray is radical, but no, they haven't struck that down.

If your state passed a law banning it they would have to answer in court about it though. And you can still bring a civil suit against the school for doing so if you think you have a strong case.

Doesn't that goes against freedom of religion?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Where was this? Because I live in Texas and we still hold prayer and moments of silence.

State of Florida.

Had you said New York I'd have been more understanding, but Florida is an odd place to actually ban those...?

[NewLakotah]

State of Florida.

Thats...surprising. Florida is very Christian. At least the places where I visit, which would be Central Florida.

Its mixed. A surprisingly large number of Catholics, a lot from Latin countries and from the north. A large segment of protestants, however, the type of Christianity is poor here, honestly...But yeah, it was surprising. particularly because my school as a charter school was very popular with conservatives and Christians.

[Saint Ryvern]

If you're going to use a source, at least make sure it truly backs your claim.

It's also ridiculously dumb to argue this point Parkus is trying to argue, considering I still went to a school that allowed moments of silence/prayer back in 2007.

Fun fact, and I say this as an education major that has taken college courses on religion in schools, just because the school you attended did something does not mean it is the most legally acceptable thing a school can do concerning religion. The public middle school in my town allowed a church to meet there every Sunday but wouldn't let any other groups use their facilities on weekends. You think that's legal? Individual schools, depending on the community they reside in, are not the best measuring stick for determining what actions are constitutional regarding religion in the educational environment.

I mean, Parkus is wrong, but your individual anecdote isn't the definitive proof in any scenario.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I mean, not allowing kids the ability to pray is radical, but no, they haven't struck that down.

If your state passed a law banning it they would have to answer in court about it though. And you can still bring a civil suit against the school for doing so if you think you have a strong case.

Doesn't that goes against freedom of religion?

Yes it actually would be against freedom of religion. Mostly because kids should be able to have at least a minute of prayer or silence if they request it.

Tho it is not necessarily something the school or the state should endorse, and even at the school-wide level I have qualms against not giving that moment of silence.

[NewLakotah]

State of Florida.

Had you said New York I'd have been more understanding, but Florida is an odd place to actually ban those...?

I don't think it was a law per say... It was at least 5 years ago, but I do know that public schools didn't allow kids to congregate around the flagpole to pray which angered a lot of people at public schools. Idk what the schools do now honestly, but I do know that my school did not allow for moments of silence, and I know public schools don't have moments of silence either.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's also ridiculously dumb to argue this point Parkus is trying to argue, considering I still went to a school that allowed moments of silence/prayer back in 2007.

Fun fact, and I say this as an education major that has taken college courses on religion in schools, just because the school you attended did something does not mean it is the most legally acceptable thing a school can do concerning religion. The public middle school in my town allowed a church to meet there every Sunday but wouldn't let any other groups use their facilities on weekends. You think that's legal? Individual schools, depending on the community they reside in, are not the best measuring stick for determining what actions are constitutional regarding religion in the educational environment.

I mean, Parkus is wrong, but your individual anecdote isn't the definitive proof in any scenario.

I mean sure, but the particular scenario we are talking about is the law saying that prayer was struck down, only the ability to make up laws that would allow it was in Jeffrey v. Schaffe, not the entire practice, so he has to come up with a better argument.

[NewLakotah]

Doesn't that goes against freedom of religion?

Yes it actually would be against freedom of religion. Mostly because kids should be able to have at least a minute of prayer or silence if they request it.

Tho it is not necessarily something the school or the state should endorse, and even at the school-wide level I have qualms against not giving that moment of silence.

There point was that it was obviously Christian, and thus an endorsement of Christianity and so was not allowed to be expressed, since other times of prayer were not sanctioned for other religions. Thus the state, operating through a public school, couldn't allow that or they would be supporting religion. Something like that.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Also, here's this:

https://education.findlaw.com/student-r ... ible-.html

The reason the law was struck wasn't because "oh fucking atheist shitting up my prayer", but it had more to the case than that.

Why a Minute of Silence May be Impermissible

During the 1980s, school prayer advocates were in search of new approaches that might prove constitutional. The so-called "minute of silence" has proven the most successful strategy, despite an early setback in which Alabama's requirement that school children observe a minute of silence each day was held unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in Wallace v. Jaffree (1985).

This law was struck down because the silent observance was described as a time when teachers would instruct willing students to pray, and the others to meditate silently. The suggestion by a state actor that students use the time for prayer amounted to a state endorsement of religion, which is impermissible under the First Amendment.

To proponents of prayer in schools, this may seem to be an overreach by a court dead set against allowing prayer in schools. However, a teacher's suggestion that students pray can have real consequences for students.

In Walter v. West Virginia Board of Education (1985), a Jewish student chose not to pray during a state mandated moment of silence and read a novel instead. That student's classmates later told him he should pray, otherwise he would "go to hell with the rest of the Jews." Baptist, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Muslim students also objected to the moment of silence. The trial court struck down the statute in that case, because it inhibited some students' abilities to practice their faith and had the effect of advancing religion during the school day.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

But that’s still entirely untrue. There’s really nothing in it for lgbtq+ people to get rid of religion. It’s the religious that actually preach extermination of lgbtq+ people.

Oh really? I want proof that shows that major religions seek to exterminate the LGBT people

No, but I was asked to repress myself and lie about who I truely am in order to please God, and “his Church”, which lead to incredible amounts of depression and suicidal ideation.

As for the off-topic of prayer in public school, I was allowed to pray with another group of students while in high school, which was public. The fact is that many Christians in this thread feel the need to have their religion and theology validated by the wider society. Meaning, they want the school to lead the prayer.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Oh really? I want proof that shows that major religions seek to exterminate the LGBT people

No, but I was asked to repress myself in order to please God, and “his Church”, which lead to incredible amounts of depression and suicidal ideation.

As for the off-topic of prayer in public school, I was allowed to pray with another group of students while in high school, which was public. The fact is that many Christians in this thread feel the need to have their religion and theology validated by the wider society. Meaning, they want the school to lead the prayer.

I rather suspect that validation is not needed. But teaching kids not to bully those who are LGBTQ is important. Far more important than religious validation. They already have their protections under law. That's not the case with the LGBT community, not by a long shot. Frankly, I fail to see the conflict that some Christians allude to: ''keep them homos away from my kids edumacation!''. Really, they don't want to do anything to your kids. They just would like to not be bullied and ostracized because of something they can't control.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

No, but I was asked to repress myself in order to please God, and “his Church”, which lead to incredible amounts of depression and suicidal ideation.

As for the off-topic of prayer in public school, I was allowed to pray with another group of students while in high school, which was public. The fact is that many Christians in this thread feel the need to have their religion and theology validated by the wider society. Meaning, they want the school to lead the prayer.

I rather suspect that validation is not needed. But teaching kids not to bully those who are LGBTQ is important. Far more important than religious validation. They already have their protections under law. That's not the case with the LGBT community, not by a long shot. Frankly, I fail to see the conflict that some Christians allude to: ''keep them homos away from my kids edumacation!''. Really, they don't want to do anything to your kids. They just would like to not be bullied and ostracized because of something they can't control.

I believe that kids should be teached not to bully...period. And that is what I exactly did to LGBT students while my time as a junior and senior in high school. Not only I was an Ann Coulter with a penis, but I was even openly “ex-gay”.

[NewLakotah]

No, but I was asked to repress myself in order to please God, and “his Church”, which lead to incredible amounts of depression and suicidal ideation.

As for the off-topic of prayer in public school, I was allowed to pray with another group of students while in high school, which was public. The fact is that many Christians in this thread feel the need to have their religion and theology validated by the wider society. Meaning, they want the school to lead the prayer.

I rather suspect that validation is not needed. But teaching kids not to bully those who are LGBTQ is important. Far more important than religious validation. They already have their protections under law. That's not the case with the LGBT community, not by a long shot. Frankly, I fail to see the conflict that some Christians allude to: ''keep them homos away from my kids edumacation!''. Really, they don't want to do anything to your kids. They just would like to not be bullied and ostracized because of something they can't control.

Teaching kids to treat all people with respect is a different point being made. Something that I don't disagree with. Teaching kids not to bully LGBT kids, or better, any kid, is important. However, I fail to see how disallowing religious views into the subject, while stating that homosexuality is natural and positive, is both a fair and better prospect for students. Nor do i feel that the way modern sex education is heading, going younger and younger, particularly where I live now, in Canada.

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

I rather suspect that validation is not needed. But teaching kids not to bully those who are LGBTQ is important. Far more important than religious validation. They already have their protections under law. That's not the case with the LGBT community, not by a long shot. Frankly, I fail to see the conflict that some Christians allude to: ''keep them homos away from my kids edumacation!''. Really, they don't want to do anything to your kids. They just would like to not be bullied and ostracized because of something they can't control.

Teaching kids to treat all people with respect is a different point being made. Something that I don't disagree with. Teaching kids not to bully LGBT kids, or better, any kid, is important. However, I fail to see how disallowing religious views into the subject, while stating that homosexuality is natural and positive, is both a fair and better prospect for students. Nor do i feel that the way modern sex education is heading, going younger and younger, particularly where I live now, in Canada.

I was allowed to express my religious views on homosexuality in high school. Also, during my freshman and sophomore years, I was actually openly and proudly gay. So, I expressed both extreme ends of the spectrum in high school. First, proudly gay and then later, “proudly” ex-gay, and I mean loud and proud “ex-gay”.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I rather suspect that validation is not needed. But teaching kids not to bully those who are LGBTQ is important. Far more important than religious validation. They already have their protections under law. That's not the case with the LGBT community, not by a long shot. Frankly, I fail to see the conflict that some Christians allude to: ''keep them homos away from my kids edumacation!''. Really, they don't want to do anything to your kids. They just would like to not be bullied and ostracized because of something they can't control.

Teaching kids to treat all people with respect is a different point being made. Something that I don't disagree with. Teaching kids not to bully LGBT kids, or better, any kid, is important. However, I fail to see how disallowing religious views into the subject, while stating that homosexuality is natural and positive, is both a fair and better prospect for students. Nor do i feel that the way modern sex education is heading, going younger and younger, particularly where I live now, in Canada.

I don't disagree with your take, you see, but the problem is that some aren't being that reasonable. Take Parkus, for example. He has stated, out right, that he doesn't want this education in public schools, period. And, at least in the US, the amount of kids that get bullied for being gay, or plain different, is alarming. I can't give numbers on suicides stemming from this because I don't have those but it has become a problem.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Those Protestant kids can pray silently, while still learning to treat LGBTQ kids with dignity. Everyone wins.

Silent prayer was struck down in Wallace v. Jaffree

Lying is a sin, Parkus :^].

State endorsement of prayer activities in schools is prohibited by the First Amendment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_v._Jaffree

[Delta-9 Tetrahydrocannabinol]

Silent prayer was struck down in Wallace v. Jaffree

Lying is a sin, Parkus :^].

State endorsement of prayer activities in schools is prohibited by the First Amendment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallace_v._Jaffree

I can state for a fact that I was allowed to pray in slient during my time in public high school. Parkus, and others seem to hold the belief if the school does not lead nor encourage the prayer, then it’s not vaild...

[NewLakotah]

Teaching kids to treat all people with respect is a different point being made. Something that I don't disagree with. Teaching kids not to bully LGBT kids, or better, any kid, is important. However, I fail to see how disallowing religious views into the subject, while stating that homosexuality is natural and positive, is both a fair and better prospect for students. Nor do i feel that the way modern sex education is heading, going younger and younger, particularly where I live now, in Canada.

I don't disagree with your take, you see, but the problem is that some aren't being that reasonable. Take Parkus, for example. He has stated, out right, that he doesn't want this education in public schools, period. And, at least in the US, the amount of kids that get bullied for being gay, or plain different, is alarming. I can't give numbers on suicides stemming from this because I don't have those but it has become a problem.

I'll admit there are some extreme points on "my" side, if you agree that there is on "your" side.

As for sex education, I already disagree with most of what is being taught and think it needs to be restricted, but am not opposed to having se education, simply because I know most teens are going to church, are not Christians and therefore don't hold to morality like I do. Also, kids in general, teens especially, are dumber than a sack of hammers. I know cause I was one. That being said, if you are attempting to truly stay "neutral", you have to integrate what a very large segment of the population believes. Either you avoid the subject and leave it to the parents, or you represent a broader picture rather than labeling those that oppose your views as either homophobic or backwards.

As for bullying issues, I find very few points to disagree on. I don't like bullying as much as the next person, possibly more since I was a victim as much as anybody can be occasionally. However, simply stating that that is all the you want, that we teach kids not to bully other kids, no matter what. I feel that there is more to that, or at least, a vast majority of people want more than that and are getting a lot more than that.