Offensive Symbols

[Sovaal]

One of the reasons why Nazism continues to hit such a particular nerve in Western society, more than Stalinism, Imperial Japan the Khmer Rouge and others, is that it roots lie in the core of Western identity, both geographically and ideologically. It's a mirror of the very worst qualities Western civilization has historically come up with - racism, militarism, ultranationalism, expansionism - and it both came to be in the heart of Europe (with no possibility to classify it as a foreign Other, an example of Oriental despotism, Asiatic savagery etc) and made its full impact on Europe, unlike the various colonialist atrocities.

Nothing bad about strong militarism sentiment.

There is when it’s turned on the weak and defenseless

[Sovaal]

Yes that's true. The Holocaust didn't come to light until the closing months of the war. Sure, the Allies knew that something was going on, but most of the stories trickling out of Europe were dismissed as exaggeration. Hell, Allied planes took extensive recon photos of Auschwitz, and analysts still didn't know what it was at the time...

I mean, I'm no military expert, but if i saw those pictures, I'd think it was some kind of army barracks or prison before guessing a death camp

Well they where prisons technically...

[West Leas Oros]

Something to do with the collective people's first thoughts. When you think of a hammer and sickle, the first thing that came into the mind is Communism in the Soviet Union. The swastika, on the other hand, the first thing that came into the thought is Nazis and the deaths that follow.

I know we should fairly read history and see that both sides are not too good during the War, but at the end of the day, for your average Joe, swastika is genocide, and hammer & sickle is Communism.

Communism in the Soviet Union

[Afrikaaners Ryk]

Just checking in with my Apartheid South Africa flag. I've been using this for a fair bit and I haven't seen anyone complain about it yet like they do with the swastikas.

[Prusswitonsiakekingkailand]

Just checking in with my Apartheid South Africa flag. I've been using this for a fair bit and I haven't seen anyone complain about it yet like they do with the swastikas.

The South African Apartheid flag is currently listed as a hate symbol by the ADL, however the ADL is completely off their rockers about 90% of their hate symbols listed (such as German Soldiers being a hate symbol along with Thor's Hammer) so I wouldn't worry about it.

[Ifreann]

Just checking in with my Apartheid South Africa flag. I've been using this for a fair bit and I haven't seen anyone complain about it yet like they do with the swastikas.

Don't worry, everyone's judging you quietly.

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Just checking in with my Apartheid South Africa flag. I've been using this for a fair bit and I haven't seen anyone complain about it yet like they do with the swastikas.

The South African Apartheid flag is currently listed as a hate symbol by the ADL, however the ADL is completely off their rockers about 90% of their hate symbols listed (such as German Soldiers being a hate symbol along with Thor's Hammer) so I wouldn't worry about it.

Those definitely sound like things neo-nazis would use as symbols.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Just checking in with my Apartheid South Africa flag. I've been using this for a fair bit and I haven't seen anyone complain about it yet like they do with the swastikas.

Don't worry, everyone's judging you quietly.

---

The South African Apartheid flag is currently listed as a hate symbol by the ADL, however the ADL is completely off their rockers about 90% of their hate symbols listed (such as German Soldiers being a hate symbol along with Thor's Hammer) so I wouldn't worry about it.

Those definitely sound like things neo-nazis would use as symbols.

Well yeah but, an unaffiliated religious symbol? And are we talking about just soldiers of the Nazi Reich or German soldiers in general

[Ifreann]

Don't worry, everyone's judging you quietly.

---

Those definitely sound like things neo-nazis would use as symbols.

Well yeah but, an unaffiliated religious symbol?

Lots of neo-nazis use Norse symbols. It's their whole Nordic superman thing.

And are we talking about just soldiers of the Nazi Reich or German soldiers in general

Nazis, I would think.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Well yeah but, an unaffiliated religious symbol?

Lots of neo-nazis use Norse symbols. It's their whole Nordic superman thing.

And are we talking about just soldiers of the Nazi Reich or German soldiers in general

Nazis, I would think.

I get nazis use the hammer but other people with no Nazi affiliation do as well. Also I don’t remember the actual Nazis using it

[Prusswitonsiakekingkailand]

The South African Apartheid flag is currently listed as a hate symbol by the ADL, however the ADL is completely off their rockers about 90% of their hate symbols listed (such as German Soldiers being a hate symbol along with Thor's Hammer) so I wouldn't worry about it.

Those definitely sound like things neo-nazis would use as symbols.

I mean, they didn't specify its hate variant, they just flat out say "The Thor's Hammer" and "German Soldiers". They also have the Imperial German Flag listed as a hate symbol, which I personally find ridiculous since according to the ADL all you have to do to identify a hate symbol is have a skinhead wank over it.

[Ifreann]

Lots of neo-nazis use Norse symbols. It's their whole Nordic superman thing.

Nazis, I would think.

I get nazis use the hammer but other people with no Nazi affiliation do as well.

Yes, I'm sure they do. So?

Also I don’t remember the actual Nazis using it

I'm not aware of them doing so.

[Ifreann]

Those definitely sound like things neo-nazis would use as symbols.

I mean, they didn't specify its hate variant, they just flat out say "The Thor's Hammer" and "German Soldiers".

They don't specify on their list of hate symbols that it's a list of hate symbols?

Wow. Huge if true.

They also have the Imperial German Flag listed as a hate symbol, which I personally find ridiculous since according to the ADL all you have to do to identify a hate symbol is have a skinhead wank over it.

That is more or less how symbols work, yes.

[Prusswitonsiakekingkailand]

I mean, they didn't specify its hate variant, they just flat out say "The Thor's Hammer" and "German Soldiers".

They don't specify on their list of hate symbols that it's a list of hate symbols?

Wow. Huge if true.

What I meant is that they don't specify it by some different name then just "Thor's Hammer" or "German Soldier" and say in the description "A vague group of Neo-Nazis and Skinheads used the symbols so it's a hate symbol".

[Ifreann]

They don't specify on their list of hate symbols that it's a list of hate symbols?

Wow. Huge if true.

What I meant is that they don't specify it by some different name then just "Thor's Hammer" or "German Soldier"

Maybe you should let them know that they can put pictures on the internet these days.

and say in the description "A vague group of Neo-Nazis and Skinheads used the symbols so it's a hate symbol".

Again, that's how symbols work.

[Ostroeuropa]

Think about it in terms of horror movies/games/books and how the best horrors reflect part of our own societies, selves, etc.

Naziism and the swastika represented elements of western civilization taken to an extreme and shocked it into changing course. We've never been in much danger of taking socialism too far, so the hammer/sickle represents a foreign regime, different, threatening even, but not horror.

On the other hand, war, industry, bureaucracy, scientific racism, etc? Those were all fundamental elements of much of western society, and for a long while we considered them to be what gave us our strength and place in the world as its hegemons.

Nazis also believed that, and decided to adhere to those principles more extremely than anyone else, the results of which horrified everyone and made them consider that the fundamentals of our society might just be bad things. These weren't the only fundamentals however, nor were they the ones that made us great (Save perhaps bureaucracy and industry).

[Prusswitonsiakekingkailand]

and say in the description "A vague group of Neo-Nazis and Skinheads used the symbols so it's a hate symbol".

Again, that's how symbols work.

But because some vague group of Neo-Nazis and Skinheads used the symbol, it wouldn't make the symbol as a whole a hate symbol, however ADL is more or less in the mindset that it would make the symbol as a whole a hate symbol.

[Ifreann]

Again, that's how symbols work.

But because some vague group of Neo-Nazis and Skinheads used the symbol, it wouldn't make the symbol as a whole a hate symbol, however ADL is more or less in the mindset that it would make the symbol as a whole a hate symbol.

What does that mean? "[T]he symbol as a whole"?

Do you think that by including a symbol on a list of hate symbols the ADL is saying that the symbol is exclusively used by hate groups, that any use of it is hateful, that if someone uses it then they are, ipso facto, a Nazi?

[Prusswitonsiakekingkailand]

But because some vague group of Neo-Nazis and Skinheads used the symbol, it wouldn't make the symbol as a whole a hate symbol, however ADL is more or less in the mindset that it would make the symbol as a whole a hate symbol.

What does that mean? "[T]he symbol as a whole"?

Do you think that by including a symbol on a list of hate symbols the ADL is saying that the symbol is exclusively used by hate groups, that any use of it is hateful, that if someone uses it then they are, ipso facto, a Nazi?

By "The symbol as a whole" I mean the symbol in any form of context or use.

Also its not me saying it, it would be ADL implying if not saying that any use of it is hateful since they have it listed under their official list of hate symbols. I personally don't think the same, and instead find it ridiculous that the ADL would say that something like the Imperial German Flag or Iron Cross as a whole (without any specification in the title mind you) are hate symbols due to their use by vague hate groups.

I myself own an Imperial German Flag, so would that make me a Nazi by ADL classification?

[Imperializt Russia]

They don't specify on their list of hate symbols that it's a list of hate symbols?

Wow. Huge if true.

What I meant is that they don't specify it by some different name then just "Thor's Hammer" or "German Soldier" and say in the description "A vague group of Neo-Nazis and Skinheads used the symbols so it's a hate symbol".

This is because if neo-Nazis didn't use generic and/or obscure imagery, then it'd be really obvious that they're neo-Nazis with neo-Nazi regalia.

Why do you think in 2016, the "National Socialist Movement" in America changed their flag from a swastika to a modified Odal rune? Because no-one knows what it is, or its connotations, historical or otherwise. Same with the Black Sun, or the less-obscure SS sieg runes.
Thor's Hammer? Aryan [white] supermen and Nordism. German soldiers? The obvious stand-in for, well, Nazi troops, if you want to wank off to Nazi troops without making it look like that's what you're doing.

The list does not mean that "Thor's Hammer is a hate symbol regardless of use", it is a guide by which you can assume that someone waving Thor iconography might be a neo-Nazi.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yes that's true. The Holocaust didn't come to light until the closing months of the war. Sure, the Allies knew that something was going on, but most of the stories trickling out of Europe were dismissed as exaggeration. Hell, Allied planes took extensive recon photos of Auschwitz, and analysts still didn't know what it was at the time...

I mean, I'm no military expert, but if i saw those pictures, I'd think it was some kind of army barracks or prison before guessing a death camp

Because you are not a military expert.

I'm not one either, but military analysts will know what German and Nazi military prisons look like, and what a barracks or garrison looks like.
They'd certainly be able to tell it's a concentration camp, since they were established back in 1933 and the Allies would have learned quite a bit about them. Ascertaining its true purpose was the issue.

[Ostroeuropa]

I mean, I'm no military expert, but if i saw those pictures, I'd think it was some kind of army barracks or prison before guessing a death camp

Because you are not a military expert.

I'm not one either, but military analysts will know what German and Nazi military prisons look like, and what a barracks or garrison looks like.
They'd certainly be able to tell it's a concentration camp, since they were established back in 1933 and the Allies would have learned quite a bit about them. Ascertaining its true purpose was the issue.

They see trains entering and leaving all the time. It's possible they assumed it was a slave labour camp. That would make the most sense.

[Pilarcraft]

Because you are not a military expert.

I'm not one either, but military analysts will know what German and Nazi military prisons look like, and what a barracks or garrison looks like.
They'd certainly be able to tell it's a concentration camp, since they were established back in 1933 and the Allies would have learned quite a bit about them. Ascertaining its true purpose was the issue.

They see trains entering and leaving all the time. It's possible they assumed it was a slave labour camp. That would make the most sense.

You'd think a slave labour camp would still constitute a "hey, just to pop in and ask if you have slave labor camps there? just asking, because you know, we banned slavery and everything" but noooo.
Honestly, the Second World War had nothing to do with the Axis' high level of atrocities. The Allies were just threatened by the Axis expansionism.

[Ifreann]

What does that mean? "[T]he symbol as a whole"?

Do you think that by including a symbol on a list of hate symbols the ADL is saying that the symbol is exclusively used by hate groups, that any use of it is hateful, that if someone uses it then they are, ipso facto, a Nazi?

By "The symbol as a whole" I mean the symbol in any form of context or use.

Also its not me saying it, it would be ADL implying if not saying that any use of it is hateful since they have it listed under their official list of hate symbols. I personally don't think the same, and instead find it ridiculous that the ADL would say that something like the Imperial German Flag or Iron Cross as a whole (without any specification in the title mind you) are hate symbols due to their use by vague hate groups.

The ADL isn't saying that, though. Have you ever looked at their list of hate symbols?
https://www.adl.org/education-and-resou ... te-symbols

Hate on Display™ Hate Symbols Database
This database provides an overview of many of the symbols most frequently used by a variety of white supremacist groups and movements, as well as some other types of hate groups.

Nothing in that suggests that any use of any of these symbols is automatically Nazi. Let's look at the entries for the symbols you've mentioned.
German Soldier.

Since World War II, neo-Nazis and some other white supremacists have adopted the image of a World War II-era German soldier as a symbol. In particular, images of Waffen SS soldiers (perceived as Hitler's elite "supermen") are popular. A popular variation is a tattoo depicting a Viking warrior, a Waffen SS soldier, and a racist skinhead side by side; such images associate the modern racist skinhead with his perceived "white warrior" forebears.

Bit more than just "Some neo-nazis use this".

Thor's Hammer.

The Thor's Hammer or Hammer of Thor is an ancient Norse symbol. In Norse mythology, Thor is the god of thunder and his hammer (called Mjölnir) has the power of lightning. During the era of Viking ascendancy, miniature Thor's Hammers were often used as religious amulets. Today, the Hammer is a major symbol for those who follow neo-Norse religions such as Asatru.

Although its traditional origins are non-racist, and although most Asatruers today are not racist, the Thor's Hammer symbol has been appropriated by neo-Nazis and other white supremacists, especially those who practice racist or white supremacist versions of neo-Norse beliefs under the guise of Odinism or Wotanism. White supremacists will often even create racist versions of the Thor's Hammer, incorporating swastikas or other hate symbols into the decoration.

Despite the widespread use of the Thor's Hammer symbol by white supremacists, the fact that it is an important symbol for non-racist Norse pagans means that one should never assume that the Thor's Hammer appearing by itself necessarily denotes racism or white supremacy. Instead, one should carefully judge the symbol in the context in which it appears.

I myself own an Imperial German Flag, so would that make me a Nazi by ADL classification?

What do you think?
Imperial German Flag( Imperial War Ensign, Reichskriegsflagge)

Because Germany has banned use of the swastika and other Nazi imagery, some German neo-Nazis use an older flag, taken from Imperial Germany, as a substitute for the Nazi flag. The imperial flag never originally had any racist or anti-Semitic meaning. Although most common in Germany, this usage of the imperial flag can also be found elsewhere in Europe and in the United States.

[Dylar]

What do you think?
Imperial German Flag( Imperial War Ensign, Reichskriegsflagge)

Because Germany has banned use of the swastika and other Nazi imagery, some German neo-Nazis use an older flag, taken from Imperial Germany, as a substitute for the Nazi flag. The imperial flag never originally had any racist or anti-Semitic meaning. Although most common in Germany, this usage of the imperial flag can also be found elsewhere in Europe and in the United States.

Hm...no wonder people look at me weirdly whenever I'm wearing my biker gloves that have the Iron Cross on it.

[Sovaal]

What do you think?
Imperial German Flag( Imperial War Ensign, Reichskriegsflagge)

Hm...no wonder people look at me weirdly whenever I'm wearing my biker gloves that have the Iron Cross on it.

Doesnt the German military still use the Iron Cross?