The best argument against gun control, in one picture.

[Caninope]

if england was as large as the US they would have a higher crime rate.

Not necessarily rate. However there are other factors that has drove the US crime rate up.

[North Calaveras]

if england was as large as the US they would have a higher crime rate.

Not necessarily rate. However there are other factors that has drove the US crime rate up.

"cough" illegal immigrants

[Gun Manufacturers]

Just to make sure..... THREAD PLOW



Okay, so, should guns be free, regulated, or outright banned, and why?

I think that each gun-control law need to be re-investigated, to see if they have any effect on crime. One gun-control law I would like to see go away is the CT Assault Weapons Ban (banning a firearm based on "evil" features is dumb). On the other hand, one gun control law I don't have a problem with is the NICS instant background check.

[Jocabia]

No, no, they don't. In fact, I proved rather clearly through statistics that are far, far more likely to do the opposite, even if you are only counting people you care about.

Can you prove that guns are used in more than 2.5 million accidents?

Guns kill people.

I'm calling BS. A gun doesn't kill you, it's the person pulling the trigger.

Border patrols are effective enough that 85% of illegal gun activity are with guns originally acquired legally in the US.

And where might we find that information?

Since this quoted again, I'll point you to virtually the only analysis that has been done in this thread... mine.

That silly 2.5 million figure is self-reported and involves property crime. You aren't saving lives by preventing someone from stealing your TV even if we assumed that it actually occurs as frequently as people report. We know statistically that even if we assumed a proportionate number of gun owners are saved from potential death that non-gun owners are not saved from, you still don't have a figure that justifies guns for home defense. Not even remotely close. The fact is that unless you are a criminal, it's highly unlikely that you'll be murdered at all. Again, I provided all these figures twice.

[Jocabia]

if england was as large as the US they would have a higher crime rate.

Not necessarily rate. However there are other factors that has drove the US crime rate up.

Yes. Our war on drugs is speculated to one of those factors.

However, even discounting our murder AND rape rate by half, we'd still have a higher murder AND rape rate than the UK.

[North Calaveras]

People, the 2nd amendment was designed to protect the citizens from tyranny, and if you don't think that's happening then why do they have the assault weapons ban for stupid shit. " Oh you can't have a collapsable stock AND a thirty round magazine, that's terrifying, we want to make sure that when we come for your guns that you get ten and we get thirty.

[Jocabia]

if england was as large as the US they would have a higher crime rate.

Not necessarily rate. However there are other factors that has drove the US crime rate up.

"cough" illegal immigrants

You have some statistics for how Illegal immigrants are driving up rape and murder (which are the statistics I compared).

[Caninope]

No, no, they don't. In fact, I proved rather clearly through statistics that are far, far more likely to do the opposite, even if you are only counting people you care about.

Can you prove that guns are used in more than 2.5 million accidents?

Guns kill people.

I'm calling BS. A gun doesn't kill you, it's the person pulling the trigger.

Border patrols are effective enough that 85% of illegal gun activity are with guns originally acquired legally in the US.

And where might we find that information?

Since this quoted again, I'll point you to virtually the only analysis that has been done in this thread... mine.

That silly 2.5 million figure is self-reported and involves property crime. You aren't saving lives by preventing someone from stealing your TV even if we assumed that it actually occurs as frequently as people report. We know statistically that even if we assumed a proportionate number of gun owners are saved from potential death that non-gun owners are not saved from, you still don't have a figure that justifies guns for home defense. Not even remotely close. The fact is that unless you are a criminal, it's highly unlikely that you'll be murdered at all. Again, I provided all these figures twice.

Maybe I'm just really tired tonight, but I was asking about the illegal gun activity.

[North Calaveras]

for one many of them bring drugs across the border, two they don't follow many of our laws(one being that they are ILLEGALY HERE), three well, we dont need to go there do we.

[Jocabia]

An armed society is a polite society

im not saying you should carry rocket launchers but pistols to assault rifles should be at least allowed

Let's not bother with actually arguments. Let's just make quotes.

My counter is: Carrying a gun gets you shot in the back.

I love bumper sticker wars.

[North Calaveras]

well id rather have one and not need it than not have one and need it ^^

[Jocabia]

for one many of them bring drugs across the border, two they don't follow many of our laws(one being that they are ILLEGALY HERE), three well, we dont need to go there do we.

Ah, yes, that's almost like a statistical argument. Well, except it isn't.

See real arguments use facts, not bumper stickers and Fox News sound bites. The majority of illegal immigrants were originally here legally. Students or workers who allowed their visas to expire. But I know you're not talking about THOSE illegal immigrants. You mean those dirty mexicans, amirite?

[New Amerik]

People, the 2nd amendment was designed to protect the citizens from tyranny, and if you don't think that's happening then why do they have the assault weapons ban for stupid shit. " Oh you can't have a collapsable stock AND a thirty round magazine, that's terrifying, we want to make sure that when we come for your guns that you get ten and we get thirty.

Simple. If you want to protect our nation from tyranny and get the assault weapons, JOIN THE MILITARY. Their responsibility is to protect the citizens of America after all.

Jeez, I don't wish to join the military, since I don't see it in my future, but I still support them!

[Jocabia]

well id rather have one and not need it than not have one and need it ^^

Ah, more bumper stickers. Can you just post all your bumper stickers in one post and save us time, please?

Meanwhile, my response is that you're not likely to need one and you are likely to have your gun stolen or misused. So, frankly, given you can't actually state anything about guns that's not on bumper stickers, I'd prefer you not have one. I'm silly like that.

[North Calaveras]

<<<<< lol


first of all im not some dumb redneck as you try to point me out to be amirite?durr duur im dumb hill billy in a christian militia wavin my guns in the air.

but seriously, they were stupid to let there visas expire then. I have nothing against mexicans fuck they want to come here then they can....legally, if they fail to follow our rules TOUGH SHIT

[Jocabia]

Just to make sure..... THREAD PLOW



Okay, so, should guns be free, regulated, or outright banned, and why?

I think that each gun-control law need to be re-investigated, to see if they have any effect on crime. One gun-control law I would like to see go away is the CT Assault Weapons Ban (banning a firearm based on "evil" features is dumb). On the other hand, one gun control law I don't have a problem with is the NICS instant background check.

This. I think gun control should be focused not on where guns are, but rather on keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. It should also focus on keeping guns secured around children. Children killed accidentally by guns should be considered a homicide. I believe that if children are found with guns they got through their parents in anything other than a controlled environment (like a range or out hunting) that the source of those guns should be guilty of attempted homicide or something equivalent. In other words, the penalty for gun negligencce should be extreme.

I believe that guns violence and accidents can be addressed, but we have to go after the sources of guns for both of those.

[North Calaveras]

Just to make sure..... THREAD PLOW



Okay, so, should guns be free, regulated, or outright banned, and why?

I think that each gun-control law need to be re-investigated, to see if they have any effect on crime. One gun-control law I would like to see go away is the CT Assault Weapons Ban (banning a firearm based on "evil" features is dumb). On the other hand, one gun control law I don't have a problem with is the NICS instant background check.

This. I think gun control should be focused not on where guns are, but rather on keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. It should also focus on keeping guns secured around children. Children killed accidentally by guns should be considered a homicide. I believe that if children are found with guns they got through their parents in anything other than a controlled environment (like a range or out hunting) that the source of those guns should be guilty of attempted homicide or something equivalent. In other words, the penalty for gun negligencce should be extreme.

I believe that guns violence and accidents can be addressed, but we have to go after the sources of guns for both of those.

so making more laws keeps guns out of criminals hands......................interesting, id like to see you spew your facts out on that one.

[Sunya]

I don't trust people with guns.

That's why I have one.

Them's my two doubloons...

[Jocabia]

<<<<< lol


first of all im not some dumb redneck as you try to point me out to be amirite?durr duur im dumb hill billy in a christian militia wavin my guns in the air.

but seriously, they were stupid to let there visas expire then. I have nothing against mexicans fuck they want to come here then they can....legally, if they fail to follow our rules TOUGH SHIT

Who mentioned rednecks? I just want you to, you know, actually make your own arguments.

Mexicans aren't the source of our problem with violence and I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. Meanwhile, you should clarify that you're not actually talking about illegal immigrants. I sincerely doubt that students who just didn't leave or renew their visas are committing a lot of murder. Frankly, I think you're not even particularly aware of them either. You're talking about Mexicans and the reason I'm painting you like I am is because you brought it up the way you did.

*ahem* racist

I'm not actually suggesting you're a racist, though there is some evidence. I'm just pointing out that when people *ahem* is usually a cover for something you think you're not supposed to say. If your point is reasonable then make it even if it's against a particular group.

[Jocabia]

Just to make sure..... THREAD PLOW



Okay, so, should guns be free, regulated, or outright banned, and why?

I think that each gun-control law need to be re-investigated, to see if they have any effect on crime. One gun-control law I would like to see go away is the CT Assault Weapons Ban (banning a firearm based on "evil" features is dumb). On the other hand, one gun control law I don't have a problem with is the NICS instant background check.

This. I think gun control should be focused not on where guns are, but rather on keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. It should also focus on keeping guns secured around children. Children killed accidentally by guns should be considered a homicide. I believe that if children are found with guns they got through their parents in anything other than a controlled environment (like a range or out hunting) that the source of those guns should be guilty of attempted homicide or something equivalent. In other words, the penalty for gun negligencce should be extreme.

I believe that guns violence and accidents can be addressed, but we have to go after the sources of guns for both of those.

so making more laws keeps guns out of criminals hands......................interesting, id like to see you spew your facts out on that one.

I did. Repeatedly. Guns used in crimes are overwhelmingly originally from a legal source. Search my posts in the thread. I get tired of repeating all of the statistics that so far not ONE person has actually addressed. Unsurprisingly, those on the fringes don't actually want to look at facts. I have yet to see you present one fact. Just bumper sticker statements completely unsupported.

Are you ready to compare the illegal immigrant populations between the UK and US? You are, no?

[Hurtful Thoughts]

In short, it is ridiculuosly easy for someone to invent a reason to confiscate all your weapons and detain you w/o evidence for up to 24 hours, during which time it is possable for an anxious officer to 'dec-activate' all your firearms by splitting the chambler, welding the firing-pin, and smashing the trigger-group (which takes all of 45 seconds and may be done in your presence).

In my neck of the woods, were that to happen to me, I'd return the favor the next time they brought their weapons in to be repaired, troubleshot, or upgraded.

There's a reason why military bases and police-stations have their own 'private' armories and gunsmiths.

BTW:
Matt Dillenger got his M1928 from a Post-office armored-car heist.
Then there was the "sawed off" Cavalry-version of the M1918A2 stolen from a military armory by George "baby-face" Nelson.

The ridiculously nasty hardware doesn't come from a store, and it's kinda paid-for in advance via tax-dollars.

So it's kinda a double-kick in the teeth when you're told you're being shot at by a gun (with ammo) paid for with tax-money, but nobody bothered to guard. (Wut, and work overtime? On MY salary?!)

[North Calaveras]

<<<<< lol


first of all im not some dumb redneck as you try to point me out to be amirite?durr duur im dumb hill billy in a christian militia wavin my guns in the air.

but seriously, they were stupid to let there visas expire then. I have nothing against mexicans fuck they want to come here then they can....legally, if they fail to follow our rules TOUGH SHIT

Who mentioned rednecks? I just want you to, you know, actually make your own arguments.

Mexicans aren't the source of our problem with violence and I challenge you to demonstrate otherwise. Meanwhile, you should clarify that you're not actually talking about illegal immigrants. I sincerely doubt that students who just didn't leave or renew their visas are committing a lot of murder. Frankly, I think you're not even particularly aware of them either. You're talking about Mexicans and the reason I'm painting you like I am is because you brought it up the way you did.

*ahem* racist

I'm not actually suggesting you're a racist, though there is some evidence. I'm just pointing out that when people *ahem* is usually a cover for something you think you're not supposed to say. If your point is reasonable then make it even if it's against a particular group.

well i think your foolish, please quote me where i thought those with expired visas were committing murder and please show me where i sounded rascist? seeing as mexicans arent a race(its a nationality) to begin with your point is invalid. So what the fuck have you been smoking lately?

[North Calaveras]

I don't trust people with guns.

That's why I have one.

Them's my two doubloons...

thank you, there is hope for at least someone after all.

[Jocabia]

well i think your foolish, please quote me where i thought those with expired visas were committing murder and please show me where i sounded rascist? seeing as mexicans arent a race(its a nationality) to begin with your point is invalid. So what the fuck have you been smoking lately?

Whether you think I'm foolish or not is irrelevant to my points. And I'm not willing to go down silly racism rabbithole with you. Either you can demonstrate how mexicans are the source of our MUCH higher rape and murder crime than the UK or you can't. So far, all evidence suggest you can't.

What I've shown is that we do worse on crime than countries with less guns. There is little evidence that we're actually protecting ourselves with those guns and we're often harming one another with them. Gun regulation actually focused on addressing the sources is what I promote. If you're a legal citizen and gun owner then you should support keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. It's only gun crime and accidents that make people want to take guns away from you. The easiest solution is to limit both.

People who don't want regulation to try and keep guns out of the hands of criminals are not being reasonable.

[Jocabia]

I don't trust people with guns.

That's why I have one.

Them's my two doubloons...

thank you, there is hope for at least someone after all.

Do you think I'm trying to take your guns? If so, you'd do well to, you know, read what people post.

I'm also former military and well-trained with guns. I enjoy going to the range, though I don't own any guns.

You'd do well to treat gun control like the complicated issue it is. It will do you a favor.