LWDT V: Completing the Five Thread Plan

[Nekokuni]

I think market socialism is the best answer. With workers' self-management and elements of democratic planning. Also I think single party-rule after the purging of the capitalist class is in itself counter-revolutionary. Revisionism is good.

Statist Syndicalism and Prussian Socialism is better

Syndicalism has always been anti-étatist at its core, revolving around the belief that worker syndicates could not rely on parties or intellectuals to make a revolution, but must instead destroy the state themselves. This put them into historic conflict with Marxism and other socialist movements which preferred Blanquism to populism. “Statist syndicalism” is a contradiction in terms as a result.

[Dark Socialism]

Statist Syndicalism and Prussian Socialism is better

Syndicalism has always been anti-étatist at its core, revolving around the belief that worker syndicates could not rely on parties or intellectuals to make a revolution, but must instead destroy the state themselves. This put them into historic conflict with Marxism and other socialist movements which preferred Blanquism to populism. “Statist syndicalism” is a contradiction in terms as a result.

I know it's just Corporatism that's why I said it

[Frievolk]

Statist Syndicalism and Prussian Socialism is better

Syndicalism has always been anti-étatist at its core, revolving around the belief that worker syndicates could not rely on parties or intellectuals to make a revolution, but must instead destroy the state themselves. This put them into historic conflict with Marxism and other socialist movements which preferred Blanquism to populism. “Statist syndicalism” is a contradiction in terms as a result.

And then you have the most étatist of them all, National Syndicalism. Or am I missing something here?

[Nekokuni]

Syndicalism has always been anti-étatist at its core, revolving around the belief that worker syndicates could not rely on parties or intellectuals to make a revolution, but must instead destroy the state themselves. This put them into historic conflict with Marxism and other socialist movements which preferred Blanquism to populism. “Statist syndicalism” is a contradiction in terms as a result.

And then you have the most étatist of them all, National Syndicalism. Or am I missing something here?

“National syndicalism” refers to one of two phenomenon:

1) authoritarian Catholic corporatism (seen in Latin countries - Spain, Portugal, etc.)
2) early proto-fascists between 1914 - 1921.

1. is just trade unionism, similar to modern tripartite corporatist states, there were no workers owning the means of production, and their economic beliefs were firmly rooted in Catholic teachings on social justice rather than revolutionary tradition. The only thing that national syndicalism and syndicalism have in common is that their economics both emphasize trade unions and they have the word “syndicalism” in their name.

2. doesn't refer to an actual ideology that Mussolini, De Ambris, and other members of the Fascio held. None of them believed they were creating some new ideology called “national syndicalism.” their beliefs were rooted in Marxism, Anarchism, and socialist internationalism under the idea that national issues had to be resolved before an international community could be achieved. In 1919 - 1921, Mussolini was still writing rabidly against the state and praising anarchists like Bakunin or Stirner. But around this time, a new form of Fascism was starting to develop due to the support base being replaced with agrarian landowners and industrialists who realized they could use them to break up trade unions & socialist party meetings.

[Second Empire of America]

A reminder that half the world is still poor and the only solution is an international revolution against the bourgeois system dominating the globe. :^)

A reminder that half the world is still collectivist and the only solution is an international revolution against the collectivist

A reminder that either half of the world would easily crush both your revolutions, and the only solution is to let everyone move to the half of the world that they like.

[New yugoslavaia]

So, you know kraut and tea? Did he actually do some dubious stuff on discord or where the alt-right trying to silence him?

[Torrocca]

A reminder that half the world is still collectivist and the only solution is an international revolution against the collectivist

A reminder that either half of the world would easily crush both your revolutions, and the only solution is to let everyone move to the half of the world that they like.

>Pro-Antifa
>Making a mockery of an Anarchist revolution

conrad pls no ;~;

[Democratic Communist Federation]

The only thing that national syndicalism and syndicalism have in common is that their economics both emphasize trade unions and they have the word “syndicalism” in their name.

Well, all types of what is called syndicalism, with no qualifiers, go back to Georges Sorel. Sorel started out as a Leftist and then gradually moved to the right. As a result, today, there are some syndicalists (revolutionary syndicalists) who are Leftists and others (national syndicalists) who are right-wing and sometimes fascists. Then, there are various types of syndicalism which fall between revolutionary and national syndicalism.

Another form of syndicalism is the historically unrelated De Leonism (Daniel De Leon). It is a Leftist and libertarian Marxist tendency. It is also pre-Bolshevik.

Anarchosyndicalism is also Leftist, but, unlike De Leonism, it is anarchist, not Marxist.

[Liriena]

So, you know kraut and tea? Did he actually do some dubious stuff on discord or where the alt-right trying to silence him?

Kraut is basically a nazi, so I'd be surprised if he's getting shat on by other nazis.

[Dark Socialism]

So, you know kraut and tea? Did he actually do some dubious stuff on discord or where the alt-right trying to silence him?

Kraut is basically a nazi, so I'd be surprised if he's getting shat on by other nazis.

He had a schizophrenic breakdown trying to disprove that there are differences between the races.

[Liriena]

Kraut is basically a nazi, so I'd be surprised if he's getting shat on by other nazis.

He had a schizophrenic breakdown trying to disprove that there are differences between the races.

Too many years of being a lying piece of shit made it unhealthy for him to try to finally tell the truth. How sad.


At least his heart was finally in the right place.

[Great Minarchistan]

Reminder that the long-term rate of profit has been stable according to data given by Michael Roberts himself

A reminder that half the world is still poor and the only solution is an international revolution against the bourgeois system dominating the globe. :^)

Half of the world being poor is an improvement faced with an apparent 99% poverty rate [under the same standards] some decades ago?

[Great Minarchistan]

Also, there's been a constant trend since the 1820s of a divergence between the wealth of the rich and everyone else and it's still rising.

r > g. Wealthy people are secular savers and consequent investors, the latter offering rates of return superior to standard growth since investment is the main driver of growth in the first place.

[Torrocca]

A reminder that half the world is still poor and the only solution is an international revolution against the bourgeois system dominating the globe. :^)

Half of the world being poor is an improvement faced with an apparent 99% poverty rate [under the same standards] some decades ago?

The point is that nobody should be impoverished, thank you very much.

Also, there's been a constant trend since the 1820s of a divergence between the wealth of the rich and everyone else and it's still rising.

r > g. Wealthy people are secular savers and consequent investors, the latter offering rates of return superior to standard growth since investment is the main driver of growth in the first place.

Sounds more like the dragons of the tales of yore, hoarding gold and only making expenditures for their own luxuries.

[Second Empire of America]

A reminder that either half of the world would easily crush both your revolutions, and the only solution is to let everyone move to the half of the world that they like.

>Pro-Antifa
>Making a mockery of an Anarchist revolution

conrad pls no ;~;

I'm fine* with an anarchist revolution, but I'm a pragmatist, and a revolution in half the planet at once isn't doable no matter the cause. You should start with something doable, such as making sure the SDF wins in Syria, or maybe restoring revolutionary Catalonia.

*I'm not an anarchist myself (I'm a social democrat), but I consider it a step up from virtually any right-wing government.

[Aellex]

I'm fine* with an anarchist revolution, but I'm a pragmatist, and a revolution in half the planet at once isn't doable no matter the cause. You should start with something doable, such as making sure the SDF wins in Syria, or maybe restoring revolutionary Catalonia.

*I'm not an anarchist myself (I'm a social democrat), but I consider it a step up from virtually any right-wing government.

I'd be up for another revolutionary Catalogne because it would means we could step up and "Restore Order" in the region, bringing it back to the fold. :^)

[Torrocca]

>Pro-Antifa
>Making a mockery of an Anarchist revolution

conrad pls no ;~;

I'm fine* with an anarchist revolution, but I'm a pragmatist, and a revolution in half the planet at once isn't doable no matter the cause. You should start with something doable, such as making sure the SDF wins in Syria, or maybe restoring revolutionary Catalonia.

*I'm not an anarchist myself (I'm a social democrat), but I consider it a step up from virtually any right-wing government.

Fair enough. I'm coolio with small steps, it's just that an international thing is a big hope of mine lol :3

[Ostroeuropa]

I agree with elements of Prussian Socialism and its rejection of Marxism and Internationalism. Fite me.

[Nekokuni]

Well, all types of what is called syndicalism, with no qualifiers, go back to Georges Sorel. Sorel started out as a Leftist and then gradually moved to the right.

Sorel's collaboration with the royalists over at Action française was a very short affair that didn't last long, primarily because of immense differences in the political ideologies and expectations of the participants. You left out how after the Cercle Proudhon failed, he openly praised the Russian Revolution and returned to regular socialist politics. His reasons for even collaborating with Maurras in the first place were accelerationist rather than an ideological shift.

“I am not a prophet. I do not know if Maurras will bring back the king of France and that is not what interests me in his thought; what I am concerned with is that he confronts the dull and reactionary bourgeoisie in making it ashamed of being defeated and in trying to give a doctrine to it.”

As a result, today, there are some syndicalists (revolutionary syndicalists) who are Leftists and others (national syndicalists) who are right-wing and sometimes fascists. Then, there are various types of syndicalism which fall between revolutionary and national syndicalism.

“Sometimes.”

No. The only people who call themselves national syndicalists are literally either Falangists or fans of the popular Kaiserreich mod. I feel like you didn't even read my post, which dealt specifically with the history of the term “national syndicalism.”

[Liriena]

I agree with elements of Prussian Socialism and its rejection of Marxism and Internationalism. Fite me.

I no fite u

[Nekokuni]

I agree with elements of Prussian Socialism and its rejection of Marxism and Internationalism. Fite me.

If you actually agreed with Prussian socialism, I don't think you would have a cartoon pony avatar, because the concept behind Spengler's idea is inherently collectivist and militarist.

[Torrocca]

I agree with elements of Prussian Socialism and its rejection of Marxism and Internationalism. Fite me.

"Spengler's Prussian socialism was popular amongst the German political right, especially the revolutionary right who had distanced themselves from traditional conservatism.[4] His notions of Prussian socialism influenced Nazism and the Conservative Revolutionary movement."

[Great Minarchistan]

The point is that nobody should be impoverished, thank you very much.

Everyone should be able to be a billionaire, immortal, president of the US, God, the personification of the Universe et. c. either.

Sounds more like the dragons of the tales of yore, hoarding gold and only making expenditures for their own luxuries.

If by "hoarding gold" you mean gigantic sums stashed on high-return investments, then yes wealthy people are gold hoarders i.e. competent investors.

[Torrocca]

The point is that nobody should be impoverished, thank you very much.

Everyone should be able to be a billionaire, immortal, president of the US, God, the personification of the Universe et. c. either.

No Gods, no Masters, tyvm. Just free people liberated from the corrupt chains of Capitalism.

Sounds more like the dragons of the tales of yore, hoarding gold and only making expenditures for their own luxuries.

If by "hoarding gold" you mean gigantic sums stashed on high-return investments, then yes wealthy people are gold hoarders i.e. competent investors.

You pretend those investments are altruistic when really we both know it's for them to profit even more.

[Great Minarchistan]

No Gods, no Masters, tyvm. Just free people liberated from the corrupt chains of Capitalism.

Oh yes, the liberation of people into an impoverished and chaos-ridden system that was practiced by CNT-FAI.

You pretend those investments are altruistic when really we both know it's for them to profit even more.

Never pretended those investments were altruistic, quote me saying so.