LWDT V: Completing the Five Thread Plan

[Aellex]

How many more guillotines do the French people need to bring out before it's clear France doesn't like monarchies?

Tbf, between Napoléon, Boulanger and De Gaulle, it's quite clear we love dem military dictatorships but Monarchy as an institution? Nah. It's quite antithetical to our National Psyche.

[Aellex]

This is so sad, can we get a cult of the supreme being?

No, but you can get a colonne infernale. ;`D

[Ostroeuropa]

How many more guillotines do the French people need to bring out before it's clear France doesn't like monarchies?

Tbf, between Napoléon, Boulanger and De Gaulle, it's quite clear we love dem military dictatorships but Monarchy as an institution? Nah. It's quite antithetical to our National Psyche.

Junta!

https://imgur.com/a/3b65X

Why not take a page out of the British playbook and conclude that you like all the pageantry but dislike the system and just be a """Military Dictatorship""" that is in practical terms a parliamentary democracy?

That way you can have marches and uniforms and so on without tyranny.

[Aellex]

Junta!

https://imgur.com/a/3b65X

Why not take a page out of the British playbook and conclude that you like all the pageantry but dislike the system and just be a """Military Dictatorship""" that is in practical terms a parliamentary democracy?

That way you can have marches and uniforms and so on without tyranny.

Well, De Gaulle (PBUH) essentially set up a Republican Dictatorship that tickle both our fancy for democracy (not Parliamentarism tho, thats cancer) and authoritarianism at the same time so we're good on that.
And that polandball meme is glorious.

[Ostroeuropa]

Junta!

https://imgur.com/a/3b65X

Why not take a page out of the British playbook and conclude that you like all the pageantry but dislike the system and just be a """Military Dictatorship""" that is in practical terms a parliamentary democracy?

That way you can have marches and uniforms and so on without tyranny.

Well, De Gaulle (PBUH) essentially set up a Republican Dictatorship that tickle both our fancy for democracy (not Parliamentarism tho, thats cancer) and authoritarianism at the same time so we're good on that.
And that polandball meme is glorious.

Fair enough, but where's the pageantry?

And yes, it's my fave Polandball meme.

[Libertarian Communist Planets]

Monarchism would not see light in countries that have tradition for civil aesthetics like France. Neo Falangism is the worst we can get in our age.

Personally, I oppose royal families more than constitutional monarchies per se. For instance, I could see voting for a monarch, as a purely honorary position without political power, who has performed exceptional service for society (say, General Russell L. Honoré for his service in Hurricane Katrina), but that royalty would not be passed on to his children or apply to members of his family.

[Salus Maior]

Monarchism would not see light in countries that have tradition for civil aesthetics like France. Neo Falangism is the worst we can get in our age.

Personally, I oppose royal families more than constitutional monarchies per se. For instance, I could see voting for a monarch, as a purely honorary position without political power, who has performed exceptional service for society (say, General Russell L. Honoré for his service in Hurricane Katrina), but that royalty would not be passed on to his children or apply to members of his family.

Then that's not a monarchy.

Monarchy is always passed down dynastic noble lines (even if electoral, the monarch is chosen between noble families). That's just, idk, a popularity contest I guess?

[Nekokuni]

That doesn't answer my question. “State Shinto” was not synonymous with the Japanese state during WW2. It dates back even to the democratic Taisho period and refers to government control over shrines. To make it into the Eastern counterpart of Nazism or Fascism just indicates a naive need to see everything in mirror images of each other.

It also included Emperor worship. However, to be clear, I never said that the three systems were mirror images of one another.

“Emperor worship” is more of a Western meme than it was historical. The state used Shintō texts such as the Man'yōshū or the Furukotofumi to emphasize the traditional belief that the Emperor was descended from the goddess Amaterasu-ōmikami and that he was an otherworldly being who should be revered, but it admitted that he was not omnipotent or omniscient, and never encouraged people to literally worship him.

You listed the three as counterparts of one another, which is completely untrue because State Shintō was not a political ideology and played no role in the Japanese government comparable to what Fascism or Nazism did in their respective countries. The Japanese government and army was filled with various ideologies and religious beliefs. Several army factions were animated by a nationalist interpretation of Nichiren, and were responsible for the Mukden Incident which helped push Japan toward WW2.

[Aellex]

“Emperor worship” is more of a Western meme than it was historical. The state used Shintō texts such as the Man'yōshū or the Furukotofumi to emphasize the traditional belief that the Emperor was descended from the goddess Amaterasu-ōmikami and that he was an otherworldly being who should be revered, but it admitted that he was not omnipotent or omniscient, and never encouraged people to literally worship him.

You listed the three as counterparts of one another, which is completely untrue because State Shintō was not a political ideology and played no role in the Japanese government comparable to what Fascism or Nazism did in their respective countries. The Japanese government and army was filled with various ideologies and religious beliefs. Several army factions were animated by a nationalist interpretation of Nichiren, and were responsible for the Mukden Incident which helped push Japan toward WW2.

Oy. I think it comes from an (unconscious or not) linking to the Roman Emperors who them were very much worshipped and actually divinised after their death.

[Second Empire of America]

Why not take a page out of the British playbook and conclude that you like all the pageantry but dislike the system and just be a """Military Dictatorship""" that is in practical terms a parliamentary democracy?

That way you can have marches and uniforms and so on without tyranny.

I now know what my next nation on NationStates will be.

[Nekokuni]

“Emperor worship” is more of a Western meme than it was historical. The state used Shintō texts such as the Man'yōshū or the Furukotofumi to emphasize the traditional belief that the Emperor was descended from the goddess Amaterasu-ōmikami and that he was an otherworldly being who should be revered, but it admitted that he was not omnipotent or omniscient, and never encouraged people to literally worship him.

You listed the three as counterparts of one another, which is completely untrue because State Shintō was not a political ideology and played no role in the Japanese government comparable to what Fascism or Nazism did in their respective countries. The Japanese government and army was filled with various ideologies and religious beliefs. Several army factions were animated by a nationalist interpretation of Nichiren, and were responsible for the Mukden Incident which helped push Japan toward WW2.

Oy. I think it comes from an (unconscious or not) linking to the Roman Emperors who them were very much worshipped and actually divinised after their death.

Were Roman Emperors actually worshiped in life? The only one I remember to have been worshiped in his own lifetime was Caligula, and that was seen as an example of his madness and megalomania. Japanese Emperors are enshrined after death as gods to be fair, but so can cats. It's not an exclusive privilege of the imperial family to become divine postmortem.

[Aellex]

Were Roman Emperors actually worshiped in life? The only one I remember to have been worshiped in his own lifetime was Caligula, and that was seen as an example of his madness and megalomania. Japanese Emperors are enshrined after death as gods to be fair, but so can cats.

Auguste made it a point not to be worshipped while he was alive in Italia proper but had his figure associated with the cult of Rome in the Eastern territories who were accustomed to seeing their Kings as living deities.
Some followed his example in that but a lot didn't and encouraged their worships and the holding of religious ceremony in their honors; especially the Antonins who divinised even other members of their family.

[Second Empire of America]

Oy. I think it comes from an (unconscious or not) linking to the Roman Emperors who them were very much worshipped and actually divinised after their death.

Were Roman Emperors actually worshiped in life? The only one I remember to have been worshiped in his own lifetime was Caligula, and that was seen as an example of his madness and megalomania.

They were mostly worshipped after they died. Julius Caesar was occasionally worshipped while he was still alive, but him and Caligula are the only ones I can think of. Most of the deified Roman Emperors were basically treated as very minor gods, with Julius and Augustus being the only ones that were particularly popular. (Currently, they're almost entirely ignored by modern day Pagans like myself.)

[Democratic Communist Federation]

You listed the three as counterparts of one another, which is completely untrue because State Shintō was not a political ideology and played no role in the Japanese government comparable to what Fascism or Nazism did in their respective countries. The Japanese government and army was filled with various ideologies and religious beliefs. Several army factions were animated by a nationalist interpretation of Nichiren, and were responsible for the Mukden Incident which helped push Japan toward WW2.

No, I never said that the three were counterparts of one another.

[Nekokuni]

You listed the three as counterparts of one another, which is completely untrue because State Shintō was not a political ideology and played no role in the Japanese government comparable to what Fascism or Nazism did in their respective countries. The Japanese government and army was filled with various ideologies and religious beliefs. Several army factions were animated by a nationalist interpretation of Nichiren, and were responsible for the Mukden Incident which helped push Japan toward WW2.

No, I never said that the three were counterparts of one another.

Each of them demonstates, after its own fashion, the potentially disastrous consequences of unchecked authoritarianism.

As I learned in graduate school, most historians are careful when applying categories from one culture to another. Two or more systems can be similar without being the same. For instance, I would not call wartime Japan fascist. I would call it State Shinto. Clarity in terms avoids confusion.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

You are now just starting to annoy me. I would politely ask that you stop. My academic work is subject to no one's approval or censorship.

[Proctopeo]

You are now just starting to annoy me. I would politely ask that you stop.

If pointing out what you did and didn't say is annoying, I'm not sure if a debate forum is the correct place for you.

My academic work is subject to no one's approval or censorship.

I fail to see how this is relevant, but it's funny nonetheless.

[Telconi]

You are now just starting to annoy me. I would politely ask that you stop. My academic work is subject to no one's approval or censorship.

Academic work is by it's very nature subject to other people's approval. It's called peer review.

[Korouse]

Most of the authors on this list I wouldn't really consider good people or proper leftists. Orwell and Steinback, for example, were both rats and supporters of imperialism. I'm not a fiction guy (I should really read more sci-fi) but there are plenty of better authors to put on here that weren't hacks, like Kim Stanley Robinson.

What did Orwell do that was rat-like and when did he support imperialism?

Orwell sold out multiple socialists to intelligence agencies and declared that the greatest test of one's journalistic ability was to denounce the Soviet Union, which funnily enough, was fighting at Stalingrad during the time he made the statement and was constantly denounced by pro-Fascist media in Britain and the United States, and often lied about.

[Nekokuni]

You are now just starting to annoy me. I would politely ask that you stop.

I'm sorry if I came across as rude, my only point was to illustrate that you did align them as counterparts of each other. Which is a common Western misconception that annoys me greatly, because it runs on the premise that the Shintō religion was somehow “perverted” between 1868 - 1945, similar to other views about Asian religions which I have a special urge to fight.

My academic work is subject to no one's approval or censorship.

Well, no, your academic work is totally subject to the approval of others, that's how academic work is. It is peer-reviewed and based on debate, not one person's word. I don't see how I'm censoring (or advocating censorship) by merely pointing out that you have conflated Fascism and State Shintō, based on your own words.

What did Orwell do that was rat-like and when did he support imperialism?

Orwell sold out multiple socialists to intelligence agencies and declared that the greatest test of one's journalistic ability was to denounce the Soviet Union, which funnily enough, was fighting at Stalingrad during the time he made the statement and was constantly denounced by pro-Fascist media in Britain and the United States, and often lied about.

Are you referring to Orwell's list?

It's not hard to see why Orwell would've bore a grudge against the USSR, based on his experience in the Spanish Civil War. A lot of socialists had good reason to denounce the Soviet Union, which had executed many of the Old Bolsheviks and helped the Germans invade Poland. There was no reason to lie, the USSR was objectively one of the worst states in history.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I'm sorry if I came across as rude, my only point was to illustrate that you did align them as counterparts of each other.

No, I did not. Precisely the opposite in fact.

Each of them demonstates, after its own fashion [emphasis added], the potentially disastrous consequences of unchecked authoritarianism.

The term after its own fashion indicates that I was not establishing them as counterparts of one another. Now, can we please just let it rest?

[Musk]

Conservative market socialism is the way of the future.
Change my mind.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Conservative market socialism is the way of the future.
Change my mind.

Perhaps you can define what you mean by conservative market socialism.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Conservative market socialism is the way of the future.
Change my mind.

Why would I try to change a mind that was already correct?

[Cekoviu]

Conservative market socialism is the way of the future.
Change my mind.

by conservative, you mean?