LWDT V: Completing the Five Thread Plan

[Asigna]

The French revolution is the nail in the coffin of Christianity in Europe. A flame of enlightenment had been beginning since the scientific revolution.

I disagree.
I see it as Christianity's ability to free itself from Papal and Absolutist Tyranny. Liberte!

A religion only ever survives when it is organized in some form and when it is radical. This is why the evangelicals are growing and why mainline protestants are dying out and why movements by "ehem ehem socalled independent non denominational Christian reformers" dont gain traction and fade into irrelevance forgotten forever (like the Gnostics, fun times). They have no ability to mobilize as a united cultural force in the face of a liberal tidal wave that is coming to attack them, hence they falter and die.

Out of all the Christian classes, only Roman Catholicism has survived for so long. All attempts ot decentralize and liberalize religions shall end in their demise.

[Asigna]

A religion only ever survives when it is organized in some form and when it is radical. This is why the evangelicals are growing and why mainline protestants are dying out and why movements by "ehem ehem socalled independent non denominational Christian reformers" dont gain traction and fade into irrelevance forgotten forever (like the Gnostics, fun times). They have no ability to mobilize as a united cultural force in the face of a liberal tidal wave that is coming to attack them, hence they falter and die.

Out of all the Christian classes, only Roman Catholicism has survived for so long. All attempts ot decentralize and liberalize religions shall end in their demise.

I see that as self-justification for tyranny or to oppress religions, based on misinformation, so agree to disagree.

I urge you to look at the statistics yourselves and see the light.

[Frievolk]

So... Which is it, should we return to the past when religion was never attacked and was at its glorious age (oh how Xtians just long for the days we didnt have to listen to the gays, we just burned them) or today when none of that is happening? Or maybe in the old ways during the time of the Church fathers when the rivals were simply killed like the Manichaeians and the silly Gnostics.

I refuse to acknowledge that first choice except to call it out on it's bull.





Now, here's a question:

What do most leftists here think of the French Revolution? Good, or bad?

I myself think it was a horribly bloody affair, but led to more good than bad. Napoleon partially intentionally stabilized Europe, and allowed nationalism to flourish, which would set the stage for both Nationalism, and the EU, which is to me a win for both modern sides. Not to mention it revolutionized economics, standardized a lot of scientific methods, smoothed out intercontinental trade, and helped kickstart the first industrial revolution. It also led to the end of the Papal States, which led to reduced religious conflict and religious interference, allowing liberties to become more accepted. Sure, the Pope tried to stop it during the Rise of Italy but Italy put a stop to that, and was only able to do so because of Napoleon. This has led to a much more stable, less fragile and bloody Europe than it may have been today, so I am a very enthusiastic supporter of it.


Pity of all those massacres though, horrible atrocities they were. I condemn them to the utmost degree.

To be honest, I despise the French Revolution.

[Asigna]

I refuse to acknowledge that first choice except to call it out on it's bull.





Now, here's a question:

What do most leftists here think of the French Revolution? Good, or bad?

I myself think it was a horribly bloody affair, but led to more good than bad. Napoleon partially intentionally stabilized Europe, and allowed nationalism to flourish, which would set the stage for both Nationalism, and the EU, which is to me a win for both modern sides. Not to mention it revolutionized economics, standardized a lot of scientific methods, smoothed out intercontinental trade, and helped kickstart the first industrial revolution. It also led to the end of the Papal States, which led to reduced religious conflict and religious interference, allowing liberties to become more accepted. Sure, the Pope tried to stop it during the Rise of Italy but Italy put a stop to that, and was only able to do so because of Napoleon. This has led to a much more stable, less fragile and bloody Europe than it may have been today, so I am a very enthusiastic supporter of it.


Pity of all those massacres though, horrible atrocities they were. I condemn them to the utmost degree.

To be honest, I despise the French Revolution.

The French revolution and the aftermath of WW1, is a glorious time.

Monarchies all over Europe have been humiliated.

That and Cromwell.

[Asigna]

I urge you to look at the statistics yourselves and see the light.

Just as everyone does for every point they make.

Not falling for that.




By the way guys, I found it weird that the Democrats were once anti-free trade.
Like....
What?
Makes sense, but it's so...weird.

Oh dear, refusing to even see statistics from independent unbiased sources.

Really says a lot about people doesn't it?

[Asigna]

To be honest, I despise the French Revolution.

It gave us Prussia uniting Germany, which I know we both love.

And allowed liberty and democracy to flourish, and freedom of religion, which I very much support.

Prussia is a disgrace.

[Asigna]

Oh dear, refusing to even see statistics from independent unbiased sources.

Really says a lot about people doesn't it?

"Independent Unbiased"

Newsflash bud: Every source claims to be that way. It's a marketing tactic.

I wasn't born yesterday. So now please, run along.

Thank you for admitting that the objective truth does not exist.

Objectivity is a spook.

[Asigna]

Thank you for admitting that the objective truth does not exist.

Objectivity is a spook.

Please do not put words in someone's mouth.
It's beneath you.

With that said, there's nothing positive for anyone that'll come out of this conversation. So see you, bud.

By saying independent statistics do not exist, you admit the very fact i have mentioned. It is common sense.

[Asigna]

On the topic of leftism... Let me do a conversation starter.

Are monarchies a disgrace?

I say yes because hereditary power is a spook.

The best argument, historically, has been that simply being the son (or daughter) of your father (or mother) is no guarantee that you’ll automatically be the best person to lead a country. Neither is being any other form of relative, as not every monarchy has continued unbroken.

As an example, look at the Ottoman Sultans. For several hundred years, the Ottoman Empire was fortunate enough to have very forward-looking Sultans, but when the rot set in with congenitally-insane, inept and sheltered Sultans, it resulted in the empire collapsing into the various successor states of today.

Therefore, leftism must take a united stand in the destruction of monarchies worldwide.

[Albrenia]

On the topic of leftism... Let me do a conversation starter.

Are monarchies a disgrace?

I say yes because hereditary power is a spook.

The best argument, historically, has been that simply being the son (or daughter) of your father (or mother) is no guarantee that you’ll automatically be the best person to lead a country. Neither is being any other form of relative, as not every monarchy has continued unbroken.

As an example, look at the Ottoman Sultans. For several hundred years, the Ottoman Empire was fortunate enough to have very forward-looking Sultans, but when the rot set in with congenitally-insane, inept and sheltered Sultans, it resulted in the empire collapsing into the various successor states of today.

Therefore, leftism must take a united stand in the destruction of monarchies worldwide.

I'm against hereditary power, for many of the reasons you stated. I've no problem with monarchies like the one I am technically a 'subject' of, though, as they hold little to no dictatorial power and are mostly just a respected cultural prop which brings in lots of tourist money.

[Frievolk]

To be honest, I despise the French Revolution.

The French revolution and the aftermath of WW1, is a glorious time.

Monarchies all over Europe have been humiliated.

That and Cromwell.

Not coincidentally, all three some of the worst eras in their relevant country's history where economy, welfare, and general power, is concerned.

To be honest, I despise the French Revolution.

It gave us Prussia uniting Germany, which I know we both love.

And allowed liberty and democracy to flourish, and freedom of religion, which I very much support.

Well I mean sure, the idea of nationalism, which was emboldened by Napoleon throughout his rampage in Europe, was what brought the idea of a German Unification. You got me there.

[Frievolk]

Not coincidentally, all three some of the worst eras in their relevant country's history where economy, welfare, and general power, is concerned.



Well I mean sure, the idea of nationalism, which was emboldened by Napoleon throughout his rampage in Europe, was what brought the idea of a German Unification. You got me there.

Germany stronk.
And without Napoleon, Nationalism would have been a far more bloody, less organized affair, and liberty, democracy, etc. wouldn't exist.

>Napoleon
>Democracy and liberty
Come on lad.

[Asigna]

The French revolution and the aftermath of WW1, is a glorious time.

Monarchies all over Europe have been humiliated.

That and Cromwell.

Not coincidentally, all three some of the worst eras in their relevant country's history where economy, welfare, and general power, is concerned.

It strengthened civil power and quashed monarchial abuse paving the way for future prosperity via civil society and rule of law. Europe shall not be Europe without the blood of monarchs being spilled and humiliated.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

What do you think about attempts to merge socialism with religion? (i.e Christian socialism, Buddhist socialism, etc.) is this a legitimate form of Leftism, or a potential gateway into theocracy and/or hierarchy? I consider myself a devout Buddhist, but I'd be reluctant to merge the two. That feels like it would be a disservice to both.

That is common among critical realists, where you find Baha'i critical realists (me), Buddhist critical realists, Christian critical realists, and so on. Roy Bhaskar himself did not follow a particular religion. However, he was strongly influenced by Hindu advaita (nonduality).

[Frievolk]

Not coincidentally, all three some of the worst eras in their relevant country's history where economy, welfare, and general power, is concerned.

It strengthened civil power and quashed monarchial abuse paving the way for future prosperity via civil society and rule of law. Europe shall not be Europe without the blood of monarchs being spilled and humiliated.

I'm starting to think you live in an alternate universe, tbh.
It quashed monarchial abuse and instead brought the abuse of a dictator that didn't have a crown. And what civil power? Cromwell's regime was even less people-oriented than the Pre-Magna Carta monarchy lmao.

[Nekokuni]

Are monarchies a disgrace?

Do I start singing Umi Yukaba, or would Kimigayo be less on the nose?

The best argument, historically, has been that simply being the son (or daughter) of your father (or mother) is no guarantee that you’ll automatically be the best person to lead a country. Neither is being any other form of relative, as not every monarchy has continued unbroken.

That argument mainly works against autocrats in general (popular or hereditary) rather than a constitutional head of state who is educated from birth about the royal duties. You could make the same argument against any form of government on the basis that none of them guarantee that a ruler is going to be benevolent and intelligent.

Therefore, leftism must take a united stand in the destruction of monarchies worldwide.

The JCP would be signing its death warrant if it ended up doing that.

[Asigna]

It strengthened civil power and quashed monarchial abuse paving the way for future prosperity via civil society and rule of law. Europe shall not be Europe without the blood of monarchs being spilled and humiliated.

I'm starting to think you live in an alternate universe, tbh.
It quashed monarchial abuse and instead brought the abuse of a dictator that didn't have a crown. And what civil power? Cromwell's regime was even less people-oriented than the Pre-Magna Carta monarchy lmao.

Code: Select all

Although the monarchy was restored, it was still only with the consent of Parliament; therefore, the civil wars effectively set England and Scotland on course to adopt a parliamentary monarchy form of government.[157] This system would result in the outcome that the future Kingdom of Great Britain, formed in 1707 under the Acts of Union, would manage to forestall the kind of often-bloody revolution, typical of European republican movements that followed the Jacobin revolution in 18th century France and the later success of Napoleon, which generally resulted in the total abolition of monarchy.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Islam lampoons the idea of Christianity which Christ died at the cross.

Actually, I disagree. The Qurʾân emphasizes that the Soul of Christ survived the Crucifixion, not that He was not crucified. Of course, Muslims would find my statement to be objectionable (which is one reason, among many, that the bulk of Salafis despise people of my religion).

[Asigna]

Are monarchies a disgrace?

Do I start singing Umi Yukaba, or would Kimigayo be less on the nose?

The best argument, historically, has been that simply being the son (or daughter) of your father (or mother) is no guarantee that you’ll automatically be the best person to lead a country. Neither is being any other form of relative, as not every monarchy has continued unbroken.

That argument mainly works against autocrats in general (popular or hereditary) rather than a constitutional head of state who is educated from birth about the royal duties. You could make the same argument against any form of government on the basis that none of them guarantee that a ruler is going to be benevolent and intelligent.

Therefore, leftism must take a united stand in the destruction of monarchies worldwide.

The JCP would be signing its death warrant if it ended up doing that.

Parliamentary democracies with monarchies are fine since the monarchs have no real power and civil society plus rule of law reigns supreme. But those who think Monarchs should have any power at all need reality checks about the dangers and its anachronism in our new world.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Fascinating. How do you protect religious liberty from government oppression, if I may ask?

As a communist, quickly switching hats, I could care less what bourgeois government do or don't do.

[Asigna]

Fascinating. How do you protect religious liberty from government oppression, if I may ask?

As a communist, quickly switching hats, I could care less what bourgeois government do or don't do.

Religion is the opium of the masses.

It is a spook.

[Nekokuni]

What do you think about attempts to merge socialism with religion? (i.e Christian socialism, Buddhist socialism, etc.) is this a legitimate form of Leftism, or a potential gateway into theocracy and/or hierarchy? I consider myself a devout Buddhist, but I'd be reluctant to merge the two. That feels like it would be a disservice to both.

That is common among critical realists, where you find Baha'i critical realists (me), Buddhist critical realists, Christian critical realists, and so on. Roy Bhaskar himself did not follow a particular religion. However, he was strongly influenced by Hindu advaita (nonduality).

Critical realism?

"Independent Unbiased"

Newsflash bud: Every source claims to be that way. It's a marketing tactic.

I wasn't born yesterday. So now please, run along.

Thank you for admitting that the objective truth does not exist.

Objectivity is a spook.

If objective truth does not exist, why are we so constricted in our existence by things we have no control over?

[Asigna]

If objective truth does not exist, why are we so constricted in our existence by things we have no control over?

No brother, objective emperical truth does exist. I am simply rehashing the sentiments of the man i debated with.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Religion is the opium of the masses.

It is a spook.

I think that Marx's statement is often misunderstood. He was not condemning religion per se. He was critiquing religion. In other words, he objected to the use of religion to placate people so that they do not revolt against the capitalist system.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Critical realism?

It is Roy Bhaskar's philosophical methodology for establishing Marxist libertarian communism.