LWDT V: Completing the Five Thread Plan

[Torrocca]

Shamelessly copying from the LDT, pls no bulli

So, you guys know how people frequently argue human nature as a basis for why Capitalism works and why Leftist ideologies, like Anarchism and Communism, can't work, right? Because of greed and stuff?

Well, even the founding father of Capitalism himself, Adam motherfuckin' Smith, argued that that idea is some malarkey:

"How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner. That we often derive sorrow from the sorrows of others, is a matter of fact too obvious to require any instances to prove it; for this sentiment, like all the other original passions of human nature, is by no means confined to the virtuous or the humane, though they perhaps may feel it with the most exquisite sensibility. The greatest ruffian, the most hardened violator of the laws of society, is not altogether without it."

[Puldania]

Shamelessly copying from the LDT, pls no bulli

So, you guys know how people frequently argue human nature as a basis for why Capitalism works and why Leftist ideologies, like Anarchism and Communism, can't work, right? Because of greed and stuff?

Well, even the founding father of Capitalism himself, Adam motherfuckin' Smith, argued that that idea is some malarkey:

"How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature, which interest him in the fortunes of others, and render their happiness necessary to him, though he derives nothing from it, except the pleasure of seeing it. Of this kind is pity or compassion, the emotion we feel for the misery of others, when we either see it, or are made to conceive it in a very lively manner. That we often derive sorrow from the sorrows of others, is a matter of fact too obvious to require any instances to prove it; for this sentiment, like all the other original passions of human nature, is by no means confined to the virtuous or the humane, though they perhaps may feel it with the most exquisite sensibility. The greatest ruffian, the most hardened violator of the laws of society, is not altogether without it."

One can have hope. If not, Transcendalism.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

You of all people should know dictionaries aren't reliable for precise definitions. Since you like academic definitions, I'd like to draw you to the distinction made in, say, German jurispudence (where extremist parties are banned), between radical and extreme politics, where the former is defined as being outside the political mainstream and the latter is defined as being hostile to the democratic politics and seeking change by means of force. This is echoed in comparative politics with Cas Mudde's and Luke March's treatments of right-wing and left-wing radicalism and extremism, where right-wing radicals (such as most European nationalist parties) are separated from right-wing extremists (neo-fascists and neo-nazis), and left-wing radicals (most democratic socialists who reject mainstream social democracy, as well as "eurocommunists") are separated from left-wing extremists (revolutionary-democratic socialists and most communists).

You are now changing the subject to, um, something. I would call it evading the point, but you would know that better than I would. You argued that the term extremist has connotations of violence. I disagreed and asked that you look it up in any dictionary. I did not specify which dictionary. Dictionaries range from the general to the specific. (For instance, I have several sociological dictionaries.)

I can tell you, having researched the subject pretty extensively, that the word extremist has no connotations of violence. That is not to say that some extremists might not be violent. However, one can also be a nonviolent extremist (like me).

...I, uh, that's kinda sad. What, one social democrat uses the term and it's just discardable?

He is not just any social democrat. He is the person who made it popular for a lot of other American social democrats to call themselves democratic socialists.

[Puldania]

You of all people should know dictionaries aren't reliable for precise definitions. Since you like academic definitions, I'd like to draw you to the distinction made in, say, German jurispudence (where extremist parties are banned), between radical and extreme politics, where the former is defined as being outside the political mainstream and the latter is defined as being hostile to the democratic politics and seeking change by means of force. This is echoed in comparative politics with Cas Mudde's and Luke March's treatments of right-wing and left-wing radicalism and extremism, where right-wing radicals (such as most European nationalist parties) are separated from right-wing extremists (neo-fascists and neo-nazis), and left-wing radicals (most democratic socialists who reject mainstream social democracy, as well as "eurocommunists") are separated from left-wing extremists (revolutionary-democratic socialists and most communists).

You are now changing the subject to, um, something. I would call it evading the point, but you would know that better than I would. You argued that the term extremist has connotations of violence. I disagreed and asked that you look it up in any dictionary. I did not specify which dictionary. Dictionaries range from the general to the specific. (For instance, I have several sociological dictionaries.)

I can tell you, having researched the subject pretty extensively, that the word extremist has no connotations of violence. That is not to say that some extremists might not be violent. However, one can also be a nonviolent extremist (like me).

...I, uh, that's kinda sad. What, one social democrat uses the term and it's just discardable?

He is not just any social democrat. He is the person who made it popular for a lot of other American social democrats to call themselves democratic socialists.

People have called me an extremist myself, despite being a near-jainist tier pacifist.

[Cekoviu]

I do appreciate that, but I don't think I'm the most knowledgeable here. Jelmatt appears to know more about linguistics than me, tbh. But anyway, Japanese is considered a Japonic language. Japonic is a primary language family with no relation to any other. It only contains Japanese and Ryukyuan, the latter of which is a smallish language spoken in the Ryukyu islands south of mainland Japan.

Oh, I see. I don't know very much about Korean, so that's new to me.

That's true. Alphabets that one has come in contact with tend to influence the ones that you create, even if it's unconscious, so the overall layout of Chinese characters may have had an effect. The characters each representing one syllable may not necessarily be influenced by Chinese, but I wouldn't be surprised.

I've heard claims that Hangul is the most efficient or most visually accurate, but I really don't see the latter claim and the former may be true, but comes with a caveat -- it's rather difficult to distinguish certain characters when they're crammed into such a tight space. This is just a personal opinion, but I also feel like curvy, flowing scripts like Burmese, Armenian, Georgian, Arabic, etc. are a lot more visually appealing than Hangul, which just feels a little bit robotic and boxy to me.

flowing scripts (specially Mkhedruli and Sinhalese) are extremely aesthetically pleasing, but, when it comes to learning them as a secondary script, very difficult to discern individual characters, especially abugidas.
Hangul, while not the prettiest, is very practical. That's why most linguists have a vicious boner for it.

Eh, I think Mxedruli is pretty easy to read with fairly few ambiguities as long as it's written on a straight line with the letters' vertical positions obvious. Can't speak as to Sinhalese. Abugidas are definitely difficult, and I've never managed to get one down perfectly.
Hangul is definitely practical, but my interest in linguistics stems more from the beauty of languages, so a practical but ugly script isn't my favorite thing. It's better than the ridiculously impractical and not particularly aesthetically pleasing 8500 character script of Chinese, though.

But you haven't emphasized it enough with your dozen or two examples!

lol. Why is this so important to you? All that matters is that I have emphasized it enough for my purposes. You are certainly free to make your own list if you choose.

Sarcasm is difficult to convey through the interblag, isn't it?

[Puldania]

flowing scripts (specially Mkhedruli and Sinhalese) are extremely aesthetically pleasing, but, when it comes to learning them as a secondary script, very difficult to discern individual characters, especially abugidas.
Hangul, while not the prettiest, is very practical. That's why most linguists have a vicious boner for it.

Eh, I think Mxedruli is pretty easy to read with fairly few ambiguities as long as it's written on a straight line with the letters' vertical positions obvious. Can't speak as to Sinhalese. Abugidas are definitely difficult, and I've never managed to get one down perfectly.
Hangul is definitely practical, but my interest in linguistics stems more from the beauty of languages, so a practical but ugly script isn't my favorite thing. It's better than the ridiculously impractical and not particularly aesthetically pleasing 8500 character script of Chinese, though.

lol. Why is this so important to you? All that matters is that I have emphasized it enough for my purposes. You are certainly free to make your own list if you choose.

Sarcasm is difficult to convey through the interblag, isn't it?

Amharic is probably the only Abugida that is somewhat easy to read.

(My interest in Linguistics also stems from aesthetics)

[Cekoviu]

Eh, I think Mxedruli is pretty easy to read with fairly few ambiguities as long as it's written on a straight line with the letters' vertical positions obvious. Can't speak as to Sinhalese. Abugidas are definitely difficult, and I've never managed to get one down perfectly.
Hangul is definitely practical, but my interest in linguistics stems more from the beauty of languages, so a practical but ugly script isn't my favorite thing. It's better than the ridiculously impractical and not particularly aesthetically pleasing 8500 character script of Chinese, though.

Sarcasm is difficult to convey through the interblag, isn't it?

Amharic is probably the only Abugida that is somewhat easy to read.

(My interest in Linguistics also stems from aesthetics)

Amharic is interesting. I don't know if I'd call it the easiest abugida, but it definitely produces good contrasts between each character.

[Puldania]

Amharic is probably the only Abugida that is somewhat easy to read.

(My interest in Linguistics also stems from aesthetics)

Amharic is interesting. I don't know if I'd call it the easiest abugida, but it definitely produces good contrasts between each character.

Tibetan is definitely the easiest though a m i r i t e

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Amharic is interesting. I don't know if I'd call it the easiest abugida, but it definitely produces good contrasts between each character.

What makes Amharic one of the two easiest Semitic languages to read (the other being Maltese) is the absence of vowel points. Of course, Hebrew, Arabic, and Syriac are abjads, not abugidas.

[Salus Maior]

Amharic is interesting. I don't know if I'd call it the easiest abugida, but it definitely produces good contrasts between each character.

What makes Amharic one of the two easiest Semitic languages to read (the other being Maltese) is the absence of vowel points. Of course, Hebrew, Arabic, and Syriac are abjads, not abugidas.

Amharic is Ethiopian, right?

[Cekoviu]

What makes Amharic one of the two easiest Semitic languages to read (the other being Maltese) is the absence of vowel points. Of course, Hebrew, Arabic, and Syriac are abjads, not abugidas.

Amharic is Ethiopian, right?

It's spoken in Ethiopia, yes.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Amharic is Ethiopian, right?

Yes, sort of. However, Amharic is not the only language used in Ethiopia. Amharic (ʾÄmarəña) is a descendant from Geꞌez (Gəʾəzə). These days, Geꞌez is only used as a liturgical language (much like Latin in the Roman Catholic Church).

[Cekoviu]

Amharic is Ethiopian, right?

Yes, sort of. However, Amharic is not the only language used in Ethiopia. Amharic (ʾÄmarəña) is a descendant from Geꞌez (Gəʾəzə). These days, Geꞌez is only used as a liturgical language (much like Latin in the Roman Catholic Church).

Also, Tigrinya is another Ethiopian Semitic language spoken in Eritrea and others, so Ethiopian is a bit broader than just Amharic.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Also, Tigrinya is another Ethiopian Semitic language spoken in Eritrea and others, so Ethiopian is a bit broader than just Amharic.

Yes, to make the distinction, some people call Amharic Ethiopic. However, that is also not very precise.

[Pasong Tirad]

Filipino feels a little forced. While technically correct, you're more likely to hear people use the term radikal (radical) or militante (militant) to describe extremists, rather than the actual word - but, more recently, there's been a kind of distinction between the two, whereas you're more likely to hear the term radikal being used for Islamist rebels, while militante is used more to describe various left-wing movements - from workers participating in a strike, to left-wing activists, to actually-armed left-wing rebels.

Filipino is an Austronesian language. As I said, I wanted to avoid radical. I also did not want to use a word like militant.

I'm not doubting that it's an Austronesian language (technically Tagalog, since "Filipino" is a catch-all term that basically means Tagalog), I'm saying that the Filipino terms you used feel forced. I'm also saying that nobody uses the term "extremist" here when speaking in Philippine languages.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Sarcasm is difficult to convey through the interblag, isn't it?

It's not sarcasm. It's frustration.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I'm not doubting that it's an Austronesian language (technically Tagalog, since "Filipino" is a catch-all term that basically means Tagalog), I'm saying that the Filipino terms you used feel forced. I'm also saying that nobody uses the term "extremist" here when speaking in Philippine languages.

That is what I found in an English-Filipino dictionary I can access through my college's intranet. My point is that I do not want to use words which carry the connotation of radical or, worse, militant. Are you aware of a Filipino word which specifically translates as extremist?

Edit: I looked even more and came up with this: isang masidhing panatiko (a passionate fanatic).

Edit: Here is a PDF with clippings using this word: ekstremista

[Second Empire of America]

He is not just any social democrat. He is the person who made it popular for a lot of other American social democrats to call themselves democratic socialists.

I'm an American social democrat, and I'm pretty annoyed by how people mix up the two terms. My economic views are on the leftmost end of capitalism, buy I'm frequently mistaken for a socialist now because of Bernie Sanders calling himself a socialist when he isn't.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I'm an American social democrat, and I'm pretty annoyed by how people mix up the two terms. My economic views are on the leftmost end of capitalism, buy I'm frequently mistaken for a socialist now because of Bernie Sanders calling himself a socialist when he isn't.

Sanders upset a lot of people, including me. I used to use the terms communist and socialist interchangeably. Now, as I said earlier, I am careful never to call myself a socialist because of Sanders. Then, a lot of democratic socialists are also angry because social democrats have been referring to themselves as democratic socialists. When genuine democratic socialists call themselves democratic socialists, many people think they support Sanders.

With few exceptions (like the alleged communist Richard D. Wolff), the only people who really like Sanders are the social democrats (Berniecrats) who support him. It would be nice if they would stop calling themselves socialists, but I doubt that will happen. When Sanders was asked to define democratic socialism, he referred to the New Deal. That is the essence of social democracy.

The problem is that the U.S. is a right-centric country, so any position even slightly to the left is viewed by many others as socialism or even communism.

[New yugoslavaia]

I'm an American social democrat, and I'm pretty annoyed by how people mix up the two terms. My economic views are on the leftmost end of capitalism, buy I'm frequently mistaken for a socialist now because of Bernie Sanders calling himself a socialist when he isn't.

Sanders upset a lot of people, including me. I used to use the terms communist and socialist interchangeably. Now, as I said earlier, I am careful never to call myself a socialist because of Sanders. Then, a lot of democratic socialists are also angry because social democrats have been referring to themselves as democratic socialists. When genuine democratic socialists call themselves democratic socialists, many people think they support Sanders.

With few exceptions (like the alleged communist Richard D. Wolff), the only people who really like Sanders are the social democrats (Berniecrats) who support him. It would be nice if they would stop calling themselves socialists, but I doubt that will happen. When Sanders was asked to define democratic socialism, he referred to the New Deal. That is the essence of social democracy.

The problem is that the U.S. is a right-centric country, so any position even slightly to the left is viewed by many others as socialism or even communism.

Shame the US (and Europe too) are becoming more right wing by the day. Stupid SJW's, tarnishing the good name of the left.

Red reveloution BTW?

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Shame the US (and Europe too) are becoming more right wing by the day. Stupid SJW's, tarnishing the good name of the left.

Red reveloution BTW?

I am a libertarian communist, not a Stalinist or some other distortion. To me, rather than condemning so-called SJWs, thought bridges should be built to guide them to libertarian communism.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Shame the US (and Europe too) are becoming more right wing by the day. Stupid SJW's, tarnishing the good name of the left.

Red reveloution BTW?

I am a libertarian communist, not a Stalinist or some other distortion. To me, rather than condemning so-called SJWs, thought bridges should be built to guide them to libertarian communism.

A bridge made from two short planks.

[New yugoslavaia]

I am a libertarian communist, not a Stalinist or some other distortion. To me, rather than condemning so-called SJWs, thought bridges should be built to guide them to libertarian communism.

A bridge made from two short planks.

Ah, good. Someone else who realises that they are just nazis but with flipped liked/hated social groups and they also don't mind the jews...actully, they might do if they really do like Islam as much as people say...or is that right wing lie?

[Mladorossiya]

Social Justice Warriors are a tiny irrelevant minority. They're basically a spook for both right and left.

[Ostroeuropa]

I think the part about the Soviet Union miiiiiight be a little outdated.

Yes, well Otto's been a bit busy rotting lately to do a rewrite so fans rather have to take his works and go with them to fit contemporary circumstances. Less of a problem than for the Marxists, of course. Most of all I like the combination of a productive and competitive economy that is not liberal capitalist with an integrative nationalism, focus on building domestic industry, and strong sense of cultural identity. I don't stick 100% with what he says and I'm not 100% convinced on the necessity of a separate class of managers in the long-term and would prefer the state to use some of its profits to support and fund new worker-owned businesses to move in gradualist fashion towards a more explicitly market socialist direction.

In a similar way to how some of those heavily influenced by Marxist thought but not explicitly card-carrying communists might call themselves "Marxian", I'm probably more "Strasser-lite" or "neo-Strasserist" than Strasserist. Hence the "semi-ironic" in the sig.

Now I'm going to bed so please divert any further questions to my TG box, where they will be shredded and thrown out for the neighbourhood cats to play with.

Kam'raden, die Rotfront und Reaktion erschossen,
Marschier'n im Geist in unser'n Reihen mit.

Comrades shot by the Red Front and reactionaries
March in spirit within our ranks

I mean, based on your description i'd be close to Strasserist. (Integrative Nationalist, Assimilationist, Market Socialist.).
But i'm also a social democrat on top of that.
(Market socialism protects workers, social democracy protects the unemployed, new parents, the retired, the disabled, and keeps our infrastructure functioning.)