LWDT V: Completing the Five Thread Plan

[Cekoviu]

So, what's the status of the world.

If the regressive left is "dead", then how do we beat the alt-right? Punching them?

Yes.

[Bienenhalde]

A fair and realistic world in my opinion. Just to dispel some ideas about me.

*There should be a free public health care system and a small number of private clinics, which should be heavily regulated to ensure they treat their patients well and provide good care. The government mandates vaccination for all children no-opt out enforceable by fines.

*Gender Neutral (aka both sexes) conscription for 2 years.

*There should be a well funded public school system from childcare to university or college plus heavily regulated private institutions. Under no circumstances should charter schools, faith schools or gender segregation schools exist.

*Universal curriculum followed by all public and private schools including Sex education after age 12, teaching evolution not creationism and some others that ain't coming up in my mind.

*All candidates should receive public funds but not be allowed to accept donations of any kind.

*All citizens should be mandatory issued with identity cards but not be required to carry them at age 12.

*Abortion should be allowed during the first and second trimesters after that they should carry to term except if there is a medical emergency.

*The government provides funding for abortions. There should be doctors able to do the operation in all major public hospitals. No private abortion clinics allowed.

*The government should offer free contraceptives in pharmacies and public toilets.

*Euthanasia should only allowed with consent from the patient and a court order.

*Companies must clearly label food and beverage products, in a manner that can be easily understood. Any chemicals used in agriculture or processing, and any GM ingredients must be listed. All ingredients and corresponding nutritional information must be listed. The government introduces, and actively enforces, food standards provisions.

*The government should fund gender reassignment surgery for people with low incomes.

*The government should introduce and actively regulates health and safety legislation in all areas of industry.

*IVF is legal and regulated in terms of the applicant's condition and procedural circumstances. No fucking octomoms.

*The use of cannabis is legal. Along with some other natural drugs.

*The government should pay partially for all citizens' pharmaceutical drugs, and pay entirely for those of low income citizens.

*Smoking should be legal outdoors and in private homes and clubs, but illegal indoors in all places of employment. Only adults may purchase tobacco.

*All sports clubs should be government owned and run. Primarily to stop the rich people from laundering their money that way.

*Surrogacy is legal, and surrogacy agreements are enforceable. Only altruistic surrogacy is legal.

*The government operates a central bank and all other banks are private. The government appoints the head of the central bank and an executive board to manage the central bank and can interfere with its operations.

*Child labour is forbidden.

*Only open shops are legal.

*Public and private sector employees have the right to collectively bargain

*Cryptocurrency is legal and regulated, the state will issue it's own cryptocurrency.

*The government obligates trade unions and employers to negotiate the daily number of working hours.

*Energy is provided by nationalised companies.

*The exchange rate of the national currency is kept within a defined band of fluctuation.

*Professionals may run licensed fireworks shows, small fireworks are legal to the general public.

*Employers cannot fire workers who have gone on strike.

*Foreign nationals are treated the same as native citizens when searching for employment.

*Foreign investors may invest in national companies, but may not get a majority share.

*Gambling is legal, but only in private homes and casinos with special licences. Sports gambling is illegal.

*Only regulated agribusinesses may produce industrial hemp.

*The government acts as an investor of last resort, by nationalizing failing industries that provide vital goods or services.

*Trade unions should exist in all industries and all workers must have membership in one.

*Labour unions and organizations of employers negotiate a salary cap.

*There shall be a minimum wage at a level considered a "living wage," well above the poverty line for a full time worker.

*Monopolies are forbidden, and are actively broken up.

*All enterprises are required to cover basic payroll contributions for their employees.

*The state subsidizes the phone service of low income families, and regulates the rates providers can charge for phone service.

*Pornography depicting consenting adults is legal for everyone. The production of pornography is treated as any other business.

*The government encourages positive discrimination and enforces it for government hiring.

*There should be a state monopoly on prostitution.

*Recreational drugs sales are handled by private foundations which are heavily regulated by the government.

*Any trade union can go on a sympathy strike in support of other striking workers. All workers have the right to strike. Trade unions must by law hold a ballot of all members before going on strike, majority approval of those that vote is needed from its members.

*The government owns the stock exchange(s).

*The government encourages the formation of Democratic Workers' Councils through subsidies and tax exemptions.

These are some of the things I want to happen in real life.

Some of that is alright, but I object to the more socially liberal aspects. I would ban recreational drugs, including marijuana, ban abortion except in cases of rape or danger to the life of the mother, and ban prostitution and pornography (except possibly animated pornography). Also, I think either private faith schools should be permitted or religious instruction should be included in state schools.

[Cekoviu]

what do you think of social democracy. I think that's as far left as I go.

I like it, though not nationalist forms. I'm probably more of a Third Way socdem.

[Liriena]

what do you think of social democracy. I think that's as far left as I go.

I have warm feelings towards social democracy. I think of it as a pragmatic, short-term answer to the problems we face right now. Anarchist direct action is good too, but I don't see it working on a large scale just yet, so if we want to make things better ASAP for the largest possible amount of people, social democracy seems like the way to go for me.

[Firaxin]

So, what's the status of the world.

If the regressive left is "dead", then how do we beat the alt-right? Punching them?

Populism is on the rise.

Populism leads to "Greater Good" thought.

"Greater Good" thought leads to the left (or Fascism.)

We've already won.

[Asherahan]

Where is the split though? 50/50 60/40? Which part is horrifying and which great?

Free contraceptives, legal pornography, free SRS, minimum wage, etc. are good; state-issued cryptocurrency, government-owned stock exchange, positive discrimination, etc. are bad. It's probably like a 60/40 split good-bad.

I can add my beliefs about culture,justice and religion if you want.

[Ostroeuropa]

what do you think of social democracy. I think that's as far left as I go.

I have warm feelings towards social democracy. I think of it as a pragmatic, short-term answer to the problems we face right now. Anarchist direct action is good too, but I don't see it working on a large scale just yet, so if we want to make things better ASAP for the largest possible amount of people, social democracy seems like the way to go for me.

Social democracy with market socialism is the best approach.
A laissez fairez market socialist system would place undue strain on services which should be available to all the public and free at the point of use, as well as on the disabled, retired, and so on.

Social democracy isn't just a short-term answer, it's a necessary part of the solution, imo.

[Asherahan]

A fair and realistic world in my opinion. Just to dispel some ideas about me.

*There should be a free public health care system and a small number of private clinics, which should be heavily regulated to ensure they treat their patients well and provide good care. The government mandates vaccination for all children no-opt out enforceable by fines.

*Gender Neutral (aka both sexes) conscription for 2 years.

*There should be a well funded public school system from childcare to university or college plus heavily regulated private institutions. Under no circumstances should charter schools, faith schools or gender segregation schools exist.

*Universal curriculum followed by all public and private schools including Sex education after age 12, teaching evolution not creationism and some others that ain't coming up in my mind.

*All candidates should receive public funds but not be allowed to accept donations of any kind.

*All citizens should be mandatory issued with identity cards but not be required to carry them at age 12.

*Abortion should be allowed during the first and second trimesters after that they should carry to term except if there is a medical emergency.

*The government provides funding for abortions. There should be doctors able to do the operation in all major public hospitals. No private abortion clinics allowed.

*The government should offer free contraceptives in pharmacies and public toilets.

*Euthanasia should only allowed with consent from the patient and a court order.

*Companies must clearly label food and beverage products, in a manner that can be easily understood. Any chemicals used in agriculture or processing, and any GM ingredients must be listed. All ingredients and corresponding nutritional information must be listed. The government introduces, and actively enforces, food standards provisions.

*The government should fund gender reassignment surgery for people with low incomes.

*The government should introduce and actively regulates health and safety legislation in all areas of industry.

*IVF is legal and regulated in terms of the applicant's condition and procedural circumstances. No fucking octomoms.

*The use of cannabis is legal. Along with some other natural drugs.

*The government should pay partially for all citizens' pharmaceutical drugs, and pay entirely for those of low income citizens.

*Smoking should be legal outdoors and in private homes and clubs, but illegal indoors in all places of employment. Only adults may purchase tobacco.

*All sports clubs should be government owned and run. Primarily to stop the rich people from laundering their money that way.

*Surrogacy is legal, and surrogacy agreements are enforceable. Only altruistic surrogacy is legal.

*The government operates a central bank and all other banks are private. The government appoints the head of the central bank and an executive board to manage the central bank and can interfere with its operations.

*Child labour is forbidden.

*Only open shops are legal.

*Public and private sector employees have the right to collectively bargain

*Cryptocurrency is legal and regulated, the state will issue it's own cryptocurrency.

*The government obligates trade unions and employers to negotiate the daily number of working hours.

*Energy is provided by nationalised companies.

*The exchange rate of the national currency is kept within a defined band of fluctuation.

*Professionals may run licensed fireworks shows, small fireworks are legal to the general public.

*Employers cannot fire workers who have gone on strike.

*Foreign nationals are treated the same as native citizens when searching for employment.

*Foreign investors may invest in national companies, but may not get a majority share.

*Gambling is legal, but only in private homes and casinos with special licences. Sports gambling is illegal.

*Only regulated agribusinesses may produce industrial hemp.

*The government acts as an investor of last resort, by nationalizing failing industries that provide vital goods or services.

*Trade unions should exist in all industries and all workers must have membership in one.

*Labour unions and organizations of employers negotiate a salary cap.

*There shall be a minimum wage at a level considered a "living wage," well above the poverty line for a full time worker.

*Monopolies are forbidden, and are actively broken up.

*All enterprises are required to cover basic payroll contributions for their employees.

*The state subsidizes the phone service of low income families, and regulates the rates providers can charge for phone service.

*Pornography depicting consenting adults is legal for everyone. The production of pornography is treated as any other business.

*The government encourages positive discrimination and enforces it for government hiring.

*There should be a state monopoly on prostitution.

*Recreational drugs sales are handled by private foundations which are heavily regulated by the government.

*Any trade union can go on a sympathy strike in support of other striking workers. All workers have the right to strike. Trade unions must by law hold a ballot of all members before going on strike, majority approval of those that vote is needed from its members.

*The government owns the stock exchange(s).

*The government encourages the formation of Democratic Workers' Councils through subsidies and tax exemptions.

These are some of the things I want to happen in real life.

Some of that is alright, but I object to the more socially liberal aspects. I would ban recreational drugs, including marijuana, ban abortion except in cases of rape or danger to the life of the mother, and ban prostitution and pornography (except possibly animated pornography). Also, I think either private faith schools should be permitted or religious instruction should be included in state schools.

I am a strict atheist in real life this is me compromising on faith issues.

[Torrocca]

what do you think of social democracy. I think that's as far left as I go.

Why not try Syndicalism?

It's radical without being too over the top for centrists, usually.

[Irou]

So, what's the status of the world.

If the regressive left is "dead", then how do we beat the alt-right? Punching them?

Yes.

lol

[West Leas Oros]

So, what's the status of the world.

If the regressive left is "dead", then how do we beat the alt-right? Punching them?

Let them end up destroying themselves. Once they stop being taken seriously and exposed as nutcases, they’ll be ridiculed out of the public sphere. The best weapon we have is logic.

[Reikoku]

The best weapon we have is logic saltiness.

Fixed, my brocialist friend.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Why not try Syndicalism?

It's radical without being too over the top for centrists, usually.

Today's syndicalism tends to be either fascist or third positionist. I would say that most of the syndicalists in this thread would fall under the second category. I respect you and your postings. However, as a libertarian Marxist, I could never recommend that anyone become a syndicalist.

If someone is attracted to syndicalist ideas, there is always De Leonism. It certainly has its flaws, but fascism and third positionism are not among them.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The best weapon we have is logic saltiness.

Fixed, my brocialist friend.

The new Party program shall be "Socialism in one Shaker".

[West Leas Oros]

Fixed, my brocialist friend.

The new Party program shall be "Socialism in one Shaker".

Seize-on (season) the means of production.

[Torrocca]

Why not try Syndicalism?

It's radical without being too over the top for centrists, usually.

Today's syndicalism tends to be either fascist or third positionist. I would say that most of the syndicalists in this thread would fall under the second category. I respect you and your postings. However, as a libertarian Marxist, I could never recommend that anyone become a syndicalist.

If someone is attracted to syndicalist ideas, there is always De Leonism. It certainly has its flaws, but fascism and third positionism are not among them.

Hmm... arguably, couldn't it be seen at least as a stepping stone into more nuanced libertarian leftism?

[Kvatchdom]

what do you think of social democracy. I think that's as far left as I go.

I like it, though not nationalist forms. I'm probably more of a Third Way socdem.

Third way social democracy is just centrism.

[Aillyria]

Why not try Syndicalism?

It's radical without being too over the top for centrists, usually.

Today's syndicalism tends to be either fascist or third positionist. I would say that most of the syndicalists in this thread would fall under the second category. I respect you and your postings. However, as a libertarian Marxist, I could never recommend that anyone become a syndicalist.

If someone is attracted to syndicalist ideas, there is always De Leonism. It certainly has its flaws, but fascism and third positionism are not among them.

I'd agree with you on the sydicalists who're regulars here (me, Ostro, and Oily) being third position-ish. Ostro is probably the most "left" of us three in the sense of not being authoritarian and having a more balanced revolution/demsoc tendency, Oily being a self professed fascist, I lay somewhere between those two, being more authoritarian that Ostro while still being revolutionary unlike Oily.

I likewise, wouldn't recommend libertarianism in any form though. I don't believe it has the force necessary to reform society, nor keep it socialist if it somehow does.

[Aillyria]

Today's syndicalism tends to be either fascist or third positionist. I would say that most of the syndicalists in this thread would fall under the second category. I respect you and your postings. However, as a libertarian Marxist, I could never recommend that anyone become a syndicalist.

If someone is attracted to syndicalist ideas, there is always De Leonism. It certainly has its flaws, but fascism and third positionism are not among them.

Hmm... arguably, couldn't it be seen at least as a stepping stone into more nuanced libertarian leftism?

Hmm...that's an interesting take. I myself didn't switch to market socialist thought until my research into libertarian socialism and anarchism....prior to that I was a "state socialist".

[Ostroeuropa]

Today's syndicalism tends to be either fascist or third positionist. I would say that most of the syndicalists in this thread would fall under the second category. I respect you and your postings. However, as a libertarian Marxist, I could never recommend that anyone become a syndicalist.

If someone is attracted to syndicalist ideas, there is always De Leonism. It certainly has its flaws, but fascism and third positionism are not among them.

I'd agree with you on the sydicalists who're regulars here (me, Ostro, and Oily) being third position-ish. Ostro is probably the most "left" of us three in the sense of not being authoritarian and having a more balanced revolution/demsoc tendency, Oily being a self professed fascist, I lay somewhere between those two, being more authoritarian that Ostro while still being revolutionary unlike Oily.

I likewise, wouldn't recommend libertarianism in any form though. I don't believe it has the force necessary to reform society, nor keep it socialist if it somehow does.

I think that's probably a fair evaluation. I have aspects of third positionism in my rejection of mainstream identity politics, going in for nationalism and against multiculturalist tolerance of backward or detrimental practices, but i'm mostly liberal and left.

[Aillyria]

I'd agree with you on the sydicalists who're regulars here (me, Ostro, and Oily) being third position-ish. Ostro is probably the most "left" of us three in the sense of not being authoritarian and having a more balanced revolution/demsoc tendency, Oily being a self professed fascist, I lay somewhere between those two, being more authoritarian that Ostro while still being revolutionary unlike Oily.

I likewise, wouldn't recommend libertarianism in any form though. I don't believe it has the force necessary to reform society, nor keep it socialist if it somehow does.

I think that's probably a fair evaluation. I have aspects of third positionism in my rejection of mainstream identity politics, going in for nationalism and against multiculturalist tolerance of backward or detrimental practices, but i'm mostly liberal and left.

I also share the same traits in my views of those. Though I'd say liberalism has only a slight influence on my views by way of my support the ideas of the US Bill of Rights.

[West Leas Oros]

I think that's probably a fair evaluation. I have aspects of third positionism in my rejection of mainstream identity politics, going in for nationalism and against multiculturalist tolerance of backward or detrimental practices, but i'm mostly liberal and left.

I also share the same traits in my views of those. Though I'd say liberalism has only a slight influence on my views by way of my support the ideas of the US Bill of Rights.

The bill of rights is an amazing document.

[Aillyria]

I also share the same traits in my views of those. Though I'd say liberalism has only a slight influence on my views by way of my support the ideas of the US Bill of Rights.

The bill of rights is an amazing document.

Indeed, one of the greatest documents even conceived.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Hmm... arguably, couldn't it be seen at least as a stepping stone into more nuanced libertarian leftism?

Anything is possible. However, the history of syndicalism shows that it tends to drift to the right, not to the left.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Third way social democracy is just centrism.

Yes, it is the centrism of Anthony Giddens and Amitai Etzioni (both sociologists, I am sad to say).