Boy Scouts of America dropping the "Boy" from their name.

[Vassenor]

Yes, the BSA has taken a step forward, but, what about letting Atheists and Agnostics in? Or taking out the "To do my duty to God" part of the Oath?

At least the Girl Scouts have allowed Atheists and Agnostics since 1993. (They were neutral up until then, but they voted that people can substitute the line in the Oath about God with any deity they prefer back in 1993.)

Why not let everybody in? and don't worry about scouting worrying about doing whatever you want to do, whatever feels right to you.

idk. This just doesn't sit right with me. In the same way the greek system has boys and girls only, I kind of think it necessary. And yes is there a degree of homoeroticism in same-sex groups like this that are tightly knit? Sometimes. But that physical and/or emotional camaraderie you build is special in its own way.

"Group X has enforced segregation ergo Group Y must have enforced segregation too" isn't really sound logic.

[Taviana SSR]

Scouts are good comrades

[Ifreann]

Yes, the BSA has taken a step forward, but, what about letting Atheists and Agnostics in? Or taking out the "To do my duty to God" part of the Oath?

At least the Girl Scouts have allowed Atheists and Agnostics since 1993. (They were neutral up until then, but they voted that people can substitute the line in the Oath about God with any deity they prefer back in 1993.)

Why not let everybody in?

Why not indeed.

[West Leas Oros]

Scouts are good comrades

Yes. And comrades are of one. Co-ed scouts. Such is glorious idea for glorious motherland.

[Katganistan]

So. . .they have seperate groups and the program is still the same, and somehow--somehow--makes it not for boys?

It's still for boys, hun. It's just also for girls now. And I love it, because the Scouting program is awesome, and beneficial to everyone who goes through it and learns from it, which girls are entirely capable of doing.

It should only be for boys hun. That's what "for boys" means. It's the "BOY" scouts. Girls want to learn the skills they teach? Good for them. Learn them somewhere else.

It's no longer the Boy Scouts. It's Scouting BSA. Get with the program.

[Ifreann]

It should only be for boys hun. That's what "for boys" means. It's the "BOY" scouts. Girls want to learn the skills they teach? Good for them. Learn them somewhere else.

It's no longer the Boy Scouts. It's Scouting BSA. Get with the program.

I don't think they're changing the name until February 19.

[Katganistan]

Whatever. It's not really important what kind of genitalia you have when you camp out and make crappy furniture out of out of useless wooden logs.

Yes, survival skills and such can be very useful, but I'm always puzzled by people who actually brag about being Eagle Scouts, as if they did three tours of duty in 'Nam.

As an Eagle Scout in my view the award has a lot less meaning than it used to. I blame this on the people who see it as a way to pad their kid's college application, treat merit badges like pokemon and who die of fright if they're more than a mile from a campsite or outside for longer than 48 hours. In my experience the people who brag about it have rarely done anything else meaningful with their lives and quite often rarely did anything meaningful in scouts.

*shrug* Depends.

My cousins don't brag about it, but he (Eagle) and she (Girl Scout) teamed up to make bookcases, organize a book donation, and made tote bags for women in shelters who had been abused. The shelter got a nice-sized library, and the women leaving the shelter got a tote bag and to pick some books that she liked to take to her new circumstances.

Community service is a pretty decent thing to encourage.

This year, my female cousin designed beanies for preemies in various superhero designs, comic character designs, etc. and organized a crochet circle, making hundreds of little hats in three different sizes for preemies since the local hospital had a program for taking pictures of full-term infants in outfits with their folks, but no comparable program for the families with more delicate and vulnerable kidlets.

So yes, I can see why Eagles and Scouting are seen as "a big deal".

Here's a a couple reasons:
The BSA already offered Coed programs for girls over the age of 14 and has done so successfully for decades without incident. Expanding downwards is a way to increase the membership of the existing 14+ programs. More members -> more money -> More support for what are some of the best scouting programs the BSA offers
Families in scouts often bring siblings along to activities and there's no reason why a 14 year old boy should get recognition for doing something while his 13 year old sister does not.

Simple solution. Get rid of the coed programs. And there is a reason the boy should get recognition. He's actually a member. His sister doesn't like it? Too bad. She can join a girls organization and get recognition from them.

Wow, get rid of a successful program that's been running for decades because girls have cooties.

The solution is even simpler. Don't join if you can't manage to deal with the aims of the organization, which clearly is "providing life skills and camping experiences for everyone".

But they like this one better.

Boo hoo. I like the minority student clubs better. Doesn't mean I can bitch and whine my way into joining one.

Actually, you can. Plenty of non-Christians in my school's Christian Club, plenty of non-Muslims in the Muslim club, plenty of non-Jews in the Jewish Club. Plenty of non-Asians in the Chinese Culture Club.

Maybe the narrow-minded view is the problem, not the inclusivity.

Separate But Equal arguments against allowing girls to join BSA in 3... 2... 1...

It's like nobody ever heard of Brown v. BoE of Topeka, Kansas before.

The part you're consistently missing here is that the BSA has been offering coed programs for literally decades and that it has not in any way led to a degradation of the organization.

Oh no, he hasn't missed it. He's just stubbornly insisting they be jettisoned because they contain girls.

This might piss someone off but I dont really care. Anyways...WHY ARE THEY TAKING BOY OUT OF BOY SCOUTS?!

They aren't. Boys are still allowed to join.
Don't be hyperbolic and ridiculous.

[Albrenia]

This might piss someone off but I dont really care. Anyways...WHY ARE THEY TAKING BOY OUT OF BOY SCOUTS?!

They aren't. Boys are still allowed to join.
Don't be hyperbolic and ridiculous.

I'm hoping they mean the name.

[Katganistan]

You know, you say this as a joke, but there are definitely some people out there who actually believe that.

Will the mods kill me if I post something about gassing men?

That would be an incredibly bad idea.

Not really? I imagine teenage girls come home from all manner of things pregnant. School. Summer camp. Burning Man. Somehow America manages to stay composed.

Of course they do, but none of those are gender-specific. There are already people bitching about that possibility. Once it becomes reality, they will lose their shit. I can here the howls of outrage already.

Then perhaps teaching both genders of Scouts about safe sex would be prudent.

There are already girls in various BSA scout programmes. Some of them may have already gotten pregnant at scout events. I'm sure everyone involved gets a stern talking to, but I'm not aware of any howls of outrage.

In case you haven't noticed, some people are already howling. Of course most of them would shit kittens if they realized (or were informed) that even with gender segregated organizations some of the kids likely were already have sex with each other. Then again, most of the people who would be howling the loudest likely have serious anti-homosexual outlooks to begin with.

*nods* I'm pretty sure there are single gender organizations in which sexual exploration is already happening, fairly often.

You know, I don't really know anything about the Girl Scouts except that in early spring they sell cookies and they recently introduced pinebox (pinewood?) derby cars. I feel like I'm just taking for granted this notion that keeps getting repeated that they're a 'cookie cabal', especially since the cookies are only sold for like one month out of the year. I wonder if people are projecting the fact that they're only aware of the Girl Scouts because of their rather effective fundraising apparatus and assuming that's all they're about. Maybe it's time for some sourcing?

Beat you to it last night.

[Tekmedias]

It can also teach women useful skills. Though I will agree that it can help boys become better men. They're not that different physically. I've had some girls beat the shit outta me in elementary...
They don't learn that differently. I, a boy, am a hands-on learner. most of the girls at work are also hands-on learners.
Nothing wrong with boys and girls camping together. I was able to do it with nothing interesting happening. Hell, I'm a teen(technically legal adult now. yay 18!) and I live with a teenage sister

Actually boys and girls are very different both mentally and physically any bit of research would tell you that.

Male and female brains are infact diffrent from each other:
https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

Men and women do learn differently

https://www.lingualift.com/blog/do-men-and-women-learn-differently/Also really are you that naive to suggest the teens won't be fucking in the camps?

(OOC) Somehow I doubt you'd so readily accept the studies showing trans women show female brain traits and trans men show male brain traits nearly as readily... See this summary article if you'd like some examples of studies that I somehow doubt you'll accept as easily as ones that agree with your preconceived notions on men and women. I'm making an assumption of course, so correct me if you are willing to accept the biologic reality of trans brains matching the natal sex they identify with though. If you are willing to accept the science that disagrees with your ideas on gender and sexual identity, how does the fact an birth-assigned male can have a female brain affect your views on the biology of gender and sex?

A.-M. Bao, D.F. Swaab, “Sexual differentiation of the human brain: Relation to gender identity, sexual orientation and neuropsychiatric disorders,” Front Neuroendocrin, 32:214-26, 2011.
J.-N. Zhou et al., “A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality,” Nature, 378:68-70, 1995.
F.P. Kruijver, “Male-to-female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus,” J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 85:2034-41, 2000.
A. Garcia-Falgueras, D. Swaab, “A sex difference in the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus: relationship to gender identity,” Brain, 131:3132-46, 2008.
S.M. Burke et al., “Male-typical visuospatial functioning in gynephilic girls with gender dysphoria—organizational and activational effects of testosterone,” J Psychiatry Neurosci, 41:395-404, 2016.
G.S. Kranz et al., “White matter microstructure in transsexuals and controls investigated by diffusion tensor imaging,” J Neurosci, 34:15466-75, 2014.
E. Hoekzema et al., “Regional volumes and spatial volumetric distribution of gray matter in the gender dysphoric brain,” Psychoneuroendocrino, 55:59-71, 2015.
L. Zubiaurre-Elorza et al., “Cortical thickness in untreated transsexuals,” Cereb Cortex, 23:2855-62, 2013.
A. Guillamon et al., “A review of the status of brain structure research in transsexualism,” Arch Sex Behav, 45:1615-48, 2016.
J. Junger et al., “More than just two sexes: the neural correlates of voice gender perception in gender dysphoria,” PLOS ONE, 9:e111672, 2014.
I. Savic, S. Arver, “Sex dimorphism of the brain in male-to-female transsexuals,” Cereb Cortex, 21:2525-33, 2011.
J.D. Feusner et al., “Intrinsic network connectivity and own body perception in gender dysphoria,” Brain Imaging Behav, 11:964-76, 2017.
E.S. Smith et al., “The transsexual brain—A review of findings on the neural basis of transsexualism,” Neurosci Biobehav R, 59:251-66, 2015.

[Mike the Progressive]

Why not let everybody in? and don't worry about scouting worrying about doing whatever you want to do, whatever feels right to you.

idk. This just doesn't sit right with me. In the same way the greek system has boys and girls only, I kind of think it necessary. And yes is there a degree of homoeroticism in same-sex groups like this that are tightly knit? Sometimes. But that physical and/or emotional camaraderie you build is special in its own way.

"Group X has enforced segregation ergo Group Y must have enforced segregation too" isn't really sound logic.

Er, I’m saying is I think it’s healthy males bond with males, just as females bond with females. This doesn’t mean all the time or in all circumstances.

[Underdark Cave]

Why not let everybody in?

Why not indeed.

That's stupid. It's like saying atheists should be allowed to be priests just for muh inclushun.

[Olthar]

Why not indeed.

That's stupid. It's like saying atheists should be allowed to be priests just for muh inclushun.

False equivalency. Being a priest intrinsically requires belief in God. Camping does not intrinsically require a penis. At least, not the kind of camping that children partake in.

[Ifreann]

Why not indeed.

That's stupid. It's like saying atheists should be allowed to be priests just for muh inclushun.

Being a priest obviously requires that one believe in the relevant god/gods. Being a scout does not require that one believe in some specific god or gods, does not require that one be a particular sex, does not require that one be a particular race, does not require that one have a particular sexual orientation. Does not require anything except that one wants to be a scout, and is willing to learn how to be a scout.

[Olthar]

That's stupid. It's like saying atheists should be allowed to be priests just for muh inclushun.

Being a priest obviously requires that one believe in the relevant god/gods. Being a scout does not require that one believe in some specific god or gods, does not require that one be a particular sex, does not require that one be a particular race, does not require that one have a particular sexual orientation. Does not require anything except that one wants to be a scout, and is willing to learn how to be a scout.

You do also need at least one working hand to do that salute thing. *nods*

Edit: I suppose, if you're really flexible, you could use a foot, instead.

[New Emeline]

Being a priest obviously requires that one believe in the relevant god/gods. Being a scout does not require that one believe in some specific god or gods, does not require that one be a particular sex, does not require that one be a particular race, does not require that one have a particular sexual orientation. Does not require anything except that one wants to be a scout, and is willing to learn how to be a scout.

You do also need at least one working hand to do that salute thing. *nods*

Not true, prosthetics exist

[Valgora]

You do also need at least one working hand to do that salute thing. *nods*

Not true, prosthetics exist

That counts as a working hand (or other body part).

[Olthar]

You do also need at least one working hand to do that salute thing. *nods*

Not true, prosthetics exist

That would be a hand, would it not? Or are you talking about hooks and chainsaws?

[New Emeline]

Not true, prosthetics exist

That would be a hand, would it not? Or are you talking about hooks and chainsaws?

yes

[Olthar]

That would be a hand, would it not? Or are you talking about hooks and chainsaws?

yes

I find that answer vague and unconvincing.

[New Emeline]

yes

I find that answer vague and unconvincing.

chainsaw hand inclusion now

[Ifreann]

I find that answer vague and unconvincing.

chainsaw hand inclusion now

[The Corparation]

That's stupid. It's like saying atheists should be allowed to be priests just for muh inclushun.

Being a priest obviously requires that one believe in the relevant god/gods. Being a scout does not require that one believe in some specific god or gods, does not require that one be a particular sex, does not require that one be a particular race, does not require that one have a particular sexual orientation. Does not require anything except that one wants to be a scout, and is willing to learn how to be a scout.

I had this discussion with my uncle and some friends earlier today. While I've never been too big on the whole "God is an important and vital part of scouting" thing an important thing is that in the US there is freedom of religion. This leads to an interesting and semi-hilarious loophole. While the Courts have found that the Boy Scouts can discriminate based on a lack of religious beliefs, BSA policy is such that they do not discriminate based on religious beliefs. One of the points of the scout law is that a scout is "Reverent" but there is no rule about what a scout needs to be reverent to. Jesus, Jehovah, Buddha, Allah, Khorne, all are acceptable answers.

The fact the SA does not discriminate based on religious beliefs yet discriminates based on lack of beliefs is of course ridiculous for obvious reasons, however it does mean that in the BSA there is only one wrong answer to the question "What are your religious beliefs?". When asked about religion as long as you answer anything besides, "I don't believe in god and/or don't have religious beliefs" they are required to accept you answer without objection. As a result of this I have numerous friends who have religious beliefs such as "I believe in nature, its interconnected and really important". Heck you probably even get away with "I don't believe in god but I have a religious faith in the power of friendship" and under BSA National Policy the person asking you would forced to accept that as your faith.

[Albrenia]

Being a priest obviously requires that one believe in the relevant god/gods. Being a scout does not require that one believe in some specific god or gods, does not require that one be a particular sex, does not require that one be a particular race, does not require that one have a particular sexual orientation. Does not require anything except that one wants to be a scout, and is willing to learn how to be a scout.

I had this discussion with my uncle and some friends earlier today. While I've never been too big on the whole "God is an important and vital part of scouting" thing an important thing is that in the US there is freedom of religion. This leads to an interesting and semi-hilarious loophole. While the Courts have found that the Boy Scouts can discriminate based on a lack of religious beliefs, BSA policy is such that they do not discriminate based on religious beliefs. One of the points of the scout law is that a scout is "Reverent" but there is no rule about what a scout needs to be reverent to. Jesus, Jehovah, Buddha, Allah, Khorne, all are acceptable answers.

The fact the SA does not discriminate based on religious beliefs yet discriminates based on lack of beliefs is of course ridiculous for obvious reasons, however it does mean that in the BSA there is only one wrong answer to the question "What are your religious beliefs?". When asked about religion as long as you answer anything besides, "I don't believe in god and/or don't have religious beliefs" they are required to accept you answer without objection. As a result of this I have numerous friends who have religious beliefs such as "I believe in nature, its interconnected and really important". Heck you probably even get away with "I don't believe in god but I have a religious faith in the power of friendship" and under BSA National Policy the person asking you would forced to accept that as your faith.

That feel when a joke response to a question is all you need to do whereas an honest response gets you booted.

"What are your religious beliefs?"

Acceptable: "I believe in the power of science to make bread teleport."

Unacceptable: "None."

[The Corparation]

That feel when a joke response to a question is all you need to do whereas an honest response gets you booted.

"What are your religious beliefs?"

Acceptable: "I believe in the power of science to make bread teleport."

Unacceptable: "None."

The key is to make the joke response just a tiny bit on the side of plausible so they're unsure if you're joking or just a nutcase on the issue.