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Monarchist Discussion Thread II: The Crown will Rise Again!

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What kind of Monarchist are you?

Absolutist
48
14%
Theocratic/ Papal
12
4%
Semi-Constitutional
45
13%
Constitutional (Modern Britain)
55
16%
Constitutional (Pre-Orange Britain)
12
4%
Constitutional (Elective)
11
3%
Constitutional (Other)
13
4%
Not a Monarchist
139
41%
 
Total votes : 335

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The Portland Territory
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Postby The Portland Territory » Wed May 02, 2018 10:35 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Engleberg wrote:
Non-monarchies have done the same thing, so this is a point of "nearly every government has done it."

That's kinda my argument.

Monarchies are not a "Defender of rights" or some stupid bullshit, they are equally as bad (if not worse) than most other political systems

Monarchies have several drawbacks, and many cases are visible in which certain aristocrats and monarchs become tyrannical or go crazy, but en majoiritié, history shows that monarchies give their subjects much more freedoms than that of democratic republics
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16 year old Monarchist from Rhode Island. Interested in economics, governance, metaphysical philosophy, European + Near Eastern history, vexillology, faith, hunting, automotive, ranching, science fiction, music, and anime.

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Washington Resistance Army
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed May 02, 2018 11:07 am

The Portland Territory wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:That's kinda my argument.

Monarchies are not a "Defender of rights" or some stupid bullshit, they are equally as bad (if not worse) than most other political systems

Monarchies have several drawbacks, and many cases are visible in which certain aristocrats and monarchs become tyrannical or go crazy, but en majoiritié, history shows that monarchies give their subjects much more freedoms than that of democratic republics


You're gonna need to source that.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed May 02, 2018 11:09 am

The Portland Territory wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:That's kinda my argument.

Monarchies are not a "Defender of rights" or some stupid bullshit, they are equally as bad (if not worse) than most other political systems

Monarchies have several drawbacks, and many cases are visible in which certain aristocrats and monarchs become tyrannical or go crazy, but en majoiritié, history shows that monarchies give their subjects much more freedoms than that of democratic republics

Which ones?

The only ones who actually defended freedom are the ones with a parliament/constitution, which even then it isn't that great because of all the succession wars.

Most absolute monarchs in history have been, well, absolute in their authority. As in, "Fuck your freedom, no liberal thoughts, no speaking out against the government, speak out against me and get arrested"
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed May 02, 2018 11:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed May 02, 2018 11:14 am

The Portland Territory wrote:monarchies give their subjects much more freedoms than that of democratic republics

If you can demonstrate that with evidence, then you have just undermined the foundation of modern democracy. But I doubt any such evidence will be forthcoming.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
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Blanco-Campeon
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Founded: Feb 04, 2018
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Postby Blanco-Campeon » Wed May 02, 2018 11:33 am

The New California Republic wrote:
The Portland Territory wrote:monarchies give their subjects much more freedoms than that of democratic republics

If you can demonstrate that with evidence, then you have just undermined the foundation of modern democracy. But I doubt any such evidence will be forthcoming.

What kinds of things would count as evidence, would you say?
Roman Catholic. Monarchist. Learning Latin.

The devil appeared to a monk disguised as an angel of light, and said to him, “I am the angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to you.” But the monk said, “Are you sure you weren’t sent to someone else? I am not worthy to have an angel sent to me.” At that the devil vanished.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed May 02, 2018 11:37 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:If you can demonstrate that with evidence, then you have just undermined the foundation of modern democracy. But I doubt any such evidence will be forthcoming.

What kinds of things would count as evidence, would you say?

I'm open to suggestions. Within reason.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Blanco-Campeon
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Postby Blanco-Campeon » Wed May 02, 2018 11:39 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Blanco-Campeon wrote:What kinds of things would count as evidence, would you say?

I'm open to suggestions. Within reason.

sorry. I should have been clearer. What are the kinds of evidence one can cite in order to claim one society is more free than another, in a general sense?
Roman Catholic. Monarchist. Learning Latin.

The devil appeared to a monk disguised as an angel of light, and said to him, “I am the angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to you.” But the monk said, “Are you sure you weren’t sent to someone else? I am not worthy to have an angel sent to me.” At that the devil vanished.

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Wed May 02, 2018 11:42 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:The only countries with an Absolute Monarch that I can think off Brunei, Swaziland, and Saudi Arabia.

What do they have in common? They're all shitholes


Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, and the emirates of the UAE are also absolute monarchies. Kuwait has a parliament with some functional power, so we'll leave it off the list. I offer no opinion as to whether they are all 'shitholes' since I've lived in one of the list, and worked in two others.


Also, Saudi Arabia isn't an absolute monarchy; it's an absolute diarchy, with power balanced between the secular throne represented by the House of Saud, and the religious ulema represented by the House of the ash-Sheikh (the descendants of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab). All three Saudi states - and the current kingdom is merely the most recent of the three - have rested on this mutually self-legitimising alliance between the two families and the two centres of power.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed May 02, 2018 11:42 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:I'm open to suggestions. Within reason.

sorry. I should have been clearer. What are the kinds of evidence one can cite in order to claim one society is more free than another, in a general sense?

Peer-reviewed research would be a good start.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Blanco-Campeon
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Postby Blanco-Campeon » Wed May 02, 2018 11:44 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Blanco-Campeon wrote:sorry. I should have been clearer. What are the kinds of evidence one can cite in order to claim one society is more free than another, in a general sense?

Peer-reviewed research would be a good start.

What would researchers look for when trying to determine if a society is 'free'?
Roman Catholic. Monarchist. Learning Latin.

The devil appeared to a monk disguised as an angel of light, and said to him, “I am the angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to you.” But the monk said, “Are you sure you weren’t sent to someone else? I am not worthy to have an angel sent to me.” At that the devil vanished.

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Dylar
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Founded: Jan 07, 2016
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Postby Dylar » Wed May 02, 2018 11:46 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Peer-reviewed research would be a good start.

What would researchers look for when trying to determine if a society is 'free'?

There's a site called Jstor.org that contains academic sources for pretty much anything.
Last edited by Dylar on Wed May 02, 2018 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed May 02, 2018 11:47 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Peer-reviewed research would be a good start.

What would researchers look for when trying to determine if a society is 'free'?

The amount of laws that restrict what people can do for one
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed May 02, 2018 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed May 02, 2018 11:48 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Peer-reviewed research would be a good start.

What would researchers look for when trying to determine if a society is 'free'?

Not really my problem. I didn't make the claim that Monarchies had more freedoms than democratic republics. Ask the OP what evidence they can provide, if any.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Blanco-Campeon
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Postby Blanco-Campeon » Wed May 02, 2018 11:49 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Blanco-Campeon wrote:What would researchers look for when trying to determine if a society is 'free'?

The amount of laws that restrict what people can do for one

Is a society where it is unlawful to commit murder less 'free' than one where it is not unlawful to commit murder?
Roman Catholic. Monarchist. Learning Latin.

The devil appeared to a monk disguised as an angel of light, and said to him, “I am the angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to you.” But the monk said, “Are you sure you weren’t sent to someone else? I am not worthy to have an angel sent to me.” At that the devil vanished.

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Blanco-Campeon
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Founded: Feb 04, 2018
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Postby Blanco-Campeon » Wed May 02, 2018 11:51 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Blanco-Campeon wrote:What would researchers look for when trying to determine if a society is 'free'?

Not really my problem. I didn't make the claim that Monarchies had more freedoms than democratic republics. Ask the OP what evidence they can provide, if any.

In order for this to be a constructive discussion, we need to find out what is meant by 'evidence' so the one making the claim can't hide behind false evidence, and those challenging the claim can't strike down true evidence. There needs to be agreement.
Roman Catholic. Monarchist. Learning Latin.

The devil appeared to a monk disguised as an angel of light, and said to him, “I am the angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to you.” But the monk said, “Are you sure you weren’t sent to someone else? I am not worthy to have an angel sent to me.” At that the devil vanished.

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed May 02, 2018 11:52 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:The amount of laws that restrict what people can do for one

Is a society where it is unlawful to commit murder less 'free' than one where it is not unlawful to commit murder?

In theory, Yes

But that's anarchism, which is 100% total freedom, and most people don't want that.
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Blanco-Campeon
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Postby Blanco-Campeon » Wed May 02, 2018 11:54 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Blanco-Campeon wrote:Is a society where it is unlawful to commit murder less 'free' than one where it is not unlawful to commit murder?

In theory, Yes

But that's anarchism, which is 100% total freedom, and most people don't want that.

ok. Would you agree that it is better to live in a society where murder is unlawful?
Roman Catholic. Monarchist. Learning Latin.

The devil appeared to a monk disguised as an angel of light, and said to him, “I am the angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to you.” But the monk said, “Are you sure you weren’t sent to someone else? I am not worthy to have an angel sent to me.” At that the devil vanished.

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed May 02, 2018 11:56 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:In theory, Yes

But that's anarchism, which is 100% total freedom, and most people don't want that.

ok. Would you agree that it is better to live in a society where murder is unlawful?

Yes

Nobody said total freedom is good, just a lot of it
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed May 02, 2018 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Buy my Chemical Weapons pls.
People ask "could", but nobody asks "should"
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Blanco-Campeon
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Postby Blanco-Campeon » Wed May 02, 2018 11:58 am

Hammer Britannia wrote:
Blanco-Campeon wrote:ok. Would you agree that it is better to live in a society where murder is unlawful?

Yes

Nobody said total freedom is good, just a lot of it

How do you know when an amount of freedom is 'too much freedom'?
Roman Catholic. Monarchist. Learning Latin.

The devil appeared to a monk disguised as an angel of light, and said to him, “I am the angel Gabriel, and I have been sent to you.” But the monk said, “Are you sure you weren’t sent to someone else? I am not worthy to have an angel sent to me.” At that the devil vanished.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed May 02, 2018 11:58 am

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not really my problem. I didn't make the claim that Monarchies had more freedoms than democratic republics. Ask the OP what evidence they can provide, if any.

In order for this to be a constructive discussion, we need to find out what is meant by 'evidence' so the one making the claim can't hide behind false evidence, and those challenging the claim can't strike down true evidence. There needs to be agreement.

Splitting hairs. Most people can use common sense to determine what constitutes evidence, so that's what we will use here, common sense.
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed May 02, 2018 12:02 pm

Blanco-Campeon wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Yes

Nobody said total freedom is good, just a lot of it

How do you know when an amount of freedom is 'too much freedom'?

When people are being violated (I.E Murdered, Raped, Robbed from, etc) and the authorities are doing nothing or if there are no Authorities.

Which most people can agree is a bad thing.
Last edited by Hammer Britannia on Wed May 02, 2018 12:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A living piece of human cancer (AKA, The FN FAL fetishist, Bi Libertarian Pagan your mom warned you about)
Buy my Chemical Weapons pls.
People ask "could", but nobody asks "should"
Offical blow me Hammer Britannia discord sever. Mostly because I wanted a discord server in my sig.
Unironic Greek Pagan, thanks WRA | The Megali Idea didn't go far enough

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Camelone
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Camelone » Thu May 03, 2018 10:51 am

What made the monarchist supporters here actually begin to support monarchy?
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Thu May 03, 2018 10:53 am

I’m fine with a british or Japanese system, where the monarch is just there for ceremony
Last edited by Internationalist Bastard on Thu May 03, 2018 10:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Thu May 03, 2018 11:51 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:I’m fine with a british or Japanese system, where the monarch is just there for ceremony

From what I have read so far on this thread, that isn't what most of the monarchy advocates here would want. I think that most of them want absolute monarchies. Feel free to correct me, anyone, if this statement is wrong...
Last edited by Friedrich Nietzsche on Thu Jan 03, 1889 13:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the complete victory over Caesar's Legion, and the pacification and annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.
Current President of The NCR: Aaron Kimball.
Current NCR Ambassador to The World Assembly: Colonel James Hsu, NCR Army (Ret.)
.

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Camelone
Minister
 
Posts: 3208
Founded: Feb 20, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Camelone » Thu May 03, 2018 12:11 pm

I'm not an absolutist. While I believe that the monarch should play a role within the political games, as well as the natural aristocracy, a strong constitution is necessary. The rule of law is crucial for the development of a successful civil society. So for a quick and dirty comparison I would support a Bonepartist or a Prussian type of monarchy, with the establishment of a national church while retaining freedom of religious practice.
Dissenting High Church Episcopalian, American High Tory with a flair of Bonapartism for extra spice
I am... the lurker!
Ave Rex Christus!

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