RWDT XII - 12 Step program to get Right.

[Diopolis]

I'd say throne-and-altar conservatives are more right-wing than, say, classical liberals, despite the latter being far more in favor of laissez-faire market economies than the former.



Old-school, monarchist, pro-clerical conservatives.

Oh...
I'd say center-right, I guess.

Really, center right for "I wear black on bastille day"?

[Valgora]

What are throne and altar conservatives?

Old-school monarchists. The French revolution was an abomination, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force(church and state have either a duopoly or church has a monopoly), hereditary social status, absolute monarchy, no pluralism, etc.

Ok

No, I wouldn't think of them as leftists.
Center-right is where I would put them - although, I don't know if many are that skeptical of capitalism. I doubt that they would want socialism to replace capitalism anyways.

[Ceolophysia]

What are throne and altar conservatives?

Old-school monarchists. The French revolution was an abomination, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force(church and state have either a duopoly or church has a monopoly), hereditary social status, absolute monarchy, no pluralism, etc.

I agree that the French revolution was bad, but hereditary positions and monarchy are intolerable. No one should have absolute power, and one should get to a position of power only by their merits and not by their father.

[Diopolis]

Old-school monarchists. The French revolution was an abomination, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force(church and state have either a duopoly or church has a monopoly), hereditary social status, absolute monarchy, no pluralism, etc.

Ok

No, I wouldn't think of them as leftists.
Center-right is where I would put them - although, I don't know if many are that skeptical of capitalism. I doubt that they would want socialism to replace capitalism anyways.

We're not socialists, no. Although some of the more distributist among us can have some similarities to syndicalism. Most of us are feudalists, mercantilists, solidarists, or some combination of above.
And again, center right for the ideology the term right wing was literally invented to describe?

[Ceolophysia]

Explain.

The spectrum was literally defined with throne-and-altar conservatives on the right and classical liberals on the left (well, the latter were accompanied by radical republicans, too, but still).

Socialists were on the far left and liberals centre-left, but in modern political climate, classical liberals have been pushed to being considered right wing. The left-right spectrum then is not the same then as now.

[Communist Zombie Horde]

The spectrum was literally defined with throne-and-altar conservatives on the right and classical liberals on the left (well, the latter were accompanied by radical republicans, too, but still).

Socialists were on the far left and liberals centre-left, but in modern political climate, classical liberals have been pushed to being considered right wing. The left-right spectrum then is not the same as now.

Argggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! My braaaaaaaiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnn!!!!!!

[Ceolophysia]

Socialists were on the far left and liberals centre-left, but in modern political climate, classical liberals have been pushed to being considered right wing. The left-right spectrum then is not the same as now.

Argggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! My braaaaaaaiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnn!!!!!!

The distinction between left and right is purely subjective.

[Jelmatt]

The spectrum was literally defined with throne-and-altar conservatives on the right and classical liberals on the left (well, the latter were accompanied by radical republicans, too, but still).

Socialists were on the far left and liberals centre-left, but in modern political climate, classical liberals have been pushed to being considered right wing. The left-right spectrum then is not the same then as now.

Socialism wasn't even an ideology during the French Revolution.

In the modern political climate classical liberals would sit on the center-right or right more often than not, yeah, but that doesn't mean that they've somehow switched places with reactionaries. Throne-and-altar, reactionary conservatism is still about as far-right as you can go.

[Bienenhalde]

Except that fascism isn't actually that hierarchical. Fascists are essentially centrist populists on crack.

If they were actually populist they would support democracy.

Couldn't an authoritarian dictator who was supported by the majority of the population technically be considered democratic?

[Northeast American Federation]

If they were actually populist they would support democracy.

Couldn't an authoritarian dictator who was supported by the majority of the population technically be considered democratic?

I guess if you consider North Korea a democracy, perhaps.

[Bienenhalde]

Ok

No, I wouldn't think of them as leftists.
Center-right is where I would put them - although, I don't know if many are that skeptical of capitalism. I doubt that they would want socialism to replace capitalism anyways.

We're not socialists, no. Although some of the more distributist among us can have some similarities to syndicalism. Most of us are feudalists, mercantilists, solidarists, or some combination of above.
And again, center right for the ideology the term right wing was literally invented to describe?

I must admit that I really do not know that much about economics, but I know that I am utterly fed up with capitalism.

[Ceolophysia]

Socialists were on the far left and liberals centre-left, but in modern political climate, classical liberals have been pushed to being considered right wing. The left-right spectrum then is not the same then as now.

In the modern political climate classical liberals would sit on the center-right or right more often than not, yeah, but that doesn't mean that they've somehow switched places with reactionaries. Throne-and-altar, reactionary conservatism is still about as far-right as you can go.

I think Capitalist Fascism would be more so, but sure. The thing is, I don't agree that an ideology with an interventionist economic policy can be the most right-wing ideology.

[Northeast American Federation]

In the modern political climate classical liberals would sit on the center-right or right more often than not, yeah, but that doesn't mean that they've somehow switched places with reactionaries. Throne-and-altar, reactionary conservatism is still about as far-right as you can go.

I think Capitalist Fascism would be more so, but sure. The thing is, I don't agree that an ideology with an interventionist economic policy can be the most right-wing ideology.

That depends on if you tie how "right wing" someone is more to economic policy than to other ideological stances.

[Valgora]

Ok

No, I wouldn't think of them as leftists.
Center-right is where I would put them - although, I don't know if many are that skeptical of capitalism. I doubt that they would want socialism to replace capitalism anyways.

We're not socialists, no. Although some of the more distributist among us can have some similarities to syndicalism. Most of us are feudalists, mercantilists, solidarists, or some combination of above.
And again, center right for the ideology the term right wing was literally invented to describe?

I don't know if they would be similar to syndicalism.

But supporting feudalism ain't left-wing, at all.

I don't fuckin' know. Fuck it, I'll put them as center right.

[Ceolophysia]

I think Capitalist Fascism would be more so, but sure. The thing is, I don't agree that an ideology with an interventionist economic policy can be the most right-wing ideology.

That depends on if you tie how "right wing" someone is more to economic policy than to other ideological stances.

I think it ties to both that and other stances. Those who say throne-and-altar reactionaries are the most right wing happen to deny economics as part of the definition and I'm pointing that out.

[Jelmatt]

That depends on if you tie how "right wing" someone is more to economic policy than to other ideological stances.

I think it ties to both that and other stances. Those who say throne-and-altar reactionaries are the most right wing happen to deny economics as part of the definition and I'm pointing that out.

I do deny at least the aspect of state intervention in the economy as part of the definition, specifically (stuff like promoting economic equality is still relevant). State intervention, in the abstract, has nothing to do with it, from a conceptual standpoint.

[Ceolophysia]

I think it ties to both that and other stances. Those who say throne-and-altar reactionaries are the most right wing happen to deny economics as part of the definition and I'm pointing that out.

I do deny at least the aspect of state intervention in the economy as part of the definition, specifically (stuff like promoting economic equality is still relevant). State intervention, in the abstract, has nothing to do with it, from a conceptual standpoint.

Mercantilism, Feudalism, and Distributism are not very right wing economic policies.

[Jelmatt]

I do deny at least the aspect of state intervention in the economy as part of the definition, specifically (stuff like promoting economic equality is still relevant). State intervention, in the abstract, has nothing to do with it, from a conceptual standpoint.

Mercantilism, Feudalism, and Distributism are not very right wing economic policies.

Mercantilism and feudalism are definitely very right wing. Distributism is fairly centrist to center-right, all things considered, though.

Again, you're assuming that laissez-faire = right-wing, which is wrong in the first place...

[Ceolophysia]

Mercantilism, Feudalism, and Distributism are not very right wing economic policies.

Mercantilism and feudalism are definitely very right wing. Distributism is fairly centrist to center-right, all things considered, though.

You could make a case for feudalism being right wing, but mercantilism and neomercantilism I would consider only centre-right, as they seem to generally be frowned upon by archconservatives that aren't throne-and-altar types.

Again, you're assuming that laissez-faire = right-wing, which is wrong in the first place...

I wouldn't consider state capitalism real capitalism.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I wouldn't consider state capitalism real capitalism.

That's an oxymoron.

[Jelmatt]

Mercantilism and feudalism are definitely very right wing. Distributism is fairly centrist to center-right, all things considered, though.

You could make a case for feudalism being right wing, but mercantilism and neomercantilism are generally be frowned upon by archconservatives that aren't throne-and-altar types.

Again, you're assuming that laissez-faire = right-wing, which is wrong in the first place...

I wouldn't consider state capitalism real capitalism.

You're assuming that being anti-capitalist makes you left-wing, too. It doesn't.

[Ceolophysia]

I wouldn't consider state capitalism real capitalism.

That's an oxymoron.

My statement or state capitalism?

---

You're assuming that being anti-capitalist makes you left-wing, too. It doesn't.

I literally just conceded that one could consider feudalism right-wing.

[Valgora]

I wouldn't consider state capitalism real capitalism.

That's an oxymoron.

State Capitalism ain't really an oxymoron.

[Jelmatt]

That's an oxymoron.

My statement or state capitalism?

---

You're assuming that being anti-capitalist makes you left-wing, too. It doesn't.

I literally just conceded that one could consider feudalism right-wing.

Why'd you even make the comment about "state capitalism" then...? I never mentioned anything about state capitalism.

That's an oxymoron.

State Capitalism ain't really an oxymoron.

I can already predict this is just gonna be an argument about what "capitalism really means."

Just know that when someone says "state capitalism" they're probably taking a definition of capitalism which emphasizes wage labor and commodity production/production for profit, not one which emphasizes the role of market competition.

[Ceolophysia]

My statement or state capitalism?

---

I literally just conceded that one could consider feudalism right-wing.

Why'd you even make the comment about "state capitalism" then...? I never mentioned anything about state capitalism.

I just giving an example by saying that state capitalism, while hierarchical, isn't truly right-wing, as it denies free market principles. I understand you didn't mention it, but I was just trying to explain my reasoning.