RWDT XII - 12 Step program to get Right.

[Ceolophysia]

Strasserists definitely are. Rexists and Italian fascists definitely aren't, I agree, but most fascist ideologies other than those use some form of socdem economics.

>Strasserists are fascists

How are they not fascists?

[Valgora]

Depends.

It can be political.
I believe Revolutionary Syndicalism is also poltical.

Well of course, overthrowing the state is political.

But National Syndicalism exists and that is kind of a part of fascism.

How?

Because fascism is all about nationalism and the state.
"National Syndicalism is an adaptation of syndicalism to suit the social agenda of integral nationalism."

[Reikoku]

Workers' ownership of the means of production through industrial democracy and labor unions.

Sounds like a strictly economic philosophy to me. Not so much political/governmental.

You're right on the money, syndicalism has historically been anti-political because of this. There were internal disagreements because the syndicalists and the Marxists as a result. Its also what lead many syndicalists to embrace the philosophy of Henri Bergson, which stressed intuition and vitality over rationalism.

[The East Marches II]

Speaking of France, its been dealing with internal demons again.

Maurras joined the prestigious Académie Française in 1938 and welcomed the government that would collaborate with the Nazis as a “divine surprise.”

Article is rather dishonest, since Maurras was praising the Vichy government for its stances, not because it collaborated with the Germans he loathed so much. The fact they did the latter made him stay detached from them.

I shouldn't be surprised a New York Times article is being dishonest and willfully misrepresenting history, it seems to be a trend with them as of late. Firing all those good writers has done a number on them. Digitization is a bitch.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well of course, overthrowing the state is political.

How?

It's a type of falangism incorporating syndicalist economics.

>Falangism
>Looks it up
>See Franco
Ooooooh

[Ceolophysia]

Strasserists definitely are. Rexists and Italian fascists definitely aren't, I agree, but most fascist ideologies other than those use some form of socdem economics.

Fascism ain't a leftist ideology.
If you said centrist, I'd agree with that.

I was mostly just saying that to oppose the conclusion that they are far-right, which they aren't, and also being a good Hayekian. They would have to believe in markets and any level of individualism to be truly right-wing.

I would consider Strasserists, NatSyns, and NazBols to be leftist, if only centre-left. Rexists, Italian Fascists, Nazis were centre to centre-right, though, I agree.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well of course, overthrowing the state is political.

How?

Because fascism is all about nationalism and the state.
"National Syndicalism is an adaptation of syndicalism to suit the social agenda of integral nationalism."

Being a nationalist doesn't mean you're a fascist.

[Ceolophysia]

Because fascism is all about nationalism and the state.
"National Syndicalism is an adaptation of syndicalism to suit the social agenda of integral nationalism."

Being a nationalist doesn't mean you're a fascist.

National Syndicalists were, though.

[Valgora]

Because fascism is all about nationalism and the state.
"National Syndicalism is an adaptation of syndicalism to suit the social agenda of integral nationalism."

Being a nationalist doesn't mean you're a fascist.

I know.
But nationalism is an important part of fascism.

[The East Marches II]

It's a type of falangism incorporating syndicalist economics.

>Falangism
>Looks it up
>See Franco
Ooooooh

Franco wasn't a Falangist. He just ruthless used them to impose ultra-conservatism and then tossed them like a used condom :^)

[Ceolophysia]

Being a nationalist doesn't mean you're a fascist.

I know.
But nationalism is an important part of fascism.

Yeah, without nationalism, it's really just extreme statism.

[Cekoviu]

>Strasserists are fascists

How are they not fascists?

For starters, it explicitly advocated for socialism?

[Valgora]

How are they not fascists?

For starters, it explicitly advocated for socialism?

Strasserism is basically a form of Nazism that is more worker-based.

[Ceolophysia]

How are they not fascists?

For starters, it explicitly advocated for socialism?

Advocating for socialism doesn't exclude an ideology from being fascist. Fascist really just means being extremely authoritarian and extremely nationalist.

[The East Marches II]

tbh the New York Times used to be good, they just sold out bit by bit and stopped doing real journalism. The death knell is when they retracted their excellent story about the flow of Western Arms into Syria at the behest of Uncle Sam.

[Diopolis]

>Falangism
>Looks it up
>See Franco
Ooooooh

Franco wasn't a Falangist. He just ruthless used them to impose ultra-conservatism and then tossed them like a used condom :^)

Franco governed like the love child of a throne and altar conservative and a standard tinpot dictator. He talked like a fascist, though. And he was awesome.

[Cekoviu]

For starters, it explicitly advocated for socialism?

Advocating for socialism doesn't exclude an ideology from being fascist. Fascist really just means being extremely authoritarian and extremely nationalist.

True, but the type of socialism they advocated seems at odds with fascist syndicalist thought.
And anyway, this discussion is pointless - the right is characterized by support of hierarchy and the left not so; contrary to popular belief, it's not necessarily about economics. Due to this, fascism is quite obviously far right.

[The East Marches II]

Tag, you're it Ladies, Gentlemen, Ruffians, Trolls and Children of the RWDT. I have a question: how do you define the state? In many right wing(and a few left wing) models, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force- party, church, and often family institutions are granted the legitimate right to the use of force in some circumstances.

This is an excellent question, I haven't thought about what I would define it as. I hope you don't mind if a take a few days to ruminate on an answer.

[Reikoku]

Advocating for socialism doesn't exclude an ideology from being fascist. Fascist really just means being extremely authoritarian and extremely nationalist.

True, but the type of socialism they advocated seems at odds with fascist syndicalist thought.
And anyway, this discussion is pointless - the right is characterized by support of hierarchy and the left not so; contrary to popular belief, it's not necessarily about economics. Due to this, fascism is quite obviously far right.

The policies of the Strasser brothers don't seem like they significantly differ from the Salò Republic.

[Diopolis]

Advocating for socialism doesn't exclude an ideology from being fascist. Fascist really just means being extremely authoritarian and extremely nationalist.

True, but the type of socialism they advocated seems at odds with fascist syndicalist thought.
And anyway, this discussion is pointless - the right is characterized by support of hierarchy and the left not so; contrary to popular belief, it's not necessarily about economics. Due to this, fascism is quite obviously far right.

Except that fascism isn't actually that hierarchical. Fascists are essentially centrist populists on crack.

[Zanera]

Tag, you're it Ladies, Gentlemen, Ruffians, Trolls and Children of the RWDT. I have a question: how do you define the state? In many right wing(and a few left wing) models, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force- party, church, and often family institutions are granted the legitimate right to the use of force in some circumstances.

Borders, a government to manage the state and hold it together. Probably has taxes. Has constituent citizens and an identifiable economy.

[New Emeline]

Tag, you're it Ladies, Gentlemen, Ruffians, Trolls and Children of the RWDT. I have a question: how do you define the state? In many right wing(and a few left wing) models, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force- party, church, and often family institutions are granted the legitimate right to the use of force in some circumstances.

gas, liquid, solid, plasma

[Ceolophysia]

Advocating for socialism doesn't exclude an ideology from being fascist. Fascist really just means being extremely authoritarian and extremely nationalist.

True, but the type of socialism they advocated seems at odds with fascist syndicalist thought.
And anyway, this discussion is pointless - the right is characterized by support of hierarchy and the left not so; contrary to popular belief, it's not necessarily about economics. Due to this, fascism is quite obviously far right.

First of all, that would make Stalinists and Ancaps centrist because they both like some hierarchies but not all, even though they are complete opposites.

Also, there are more factors than just social hierarchies, there is also capitalism (of course), cultural homogeneity, conservative values, private property, and personal responsibility, but the definition is probably pretty subjective, so I pose the question to all RWDT'ers:

How do you define "Right-Wing"?

[Jelmatt]

Tag, you're it Ladies, Gentlemen, Ruffians, Trolls and Children of the RWDT. I have a question: how do you define the state? In many right wing(and a few left wing) models, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force- party, church, and often family institutions are granted the legitimate right to the use of force in some circumstances.

That's sorta a misunderstanding of what "monopoly on legitimate force" means. Weber's definition means that the state has the ultimate right to decide the legitimacy of different kinds of force; all legitimate force outside the state still rests on the state recognizing that force as legitimate, under Weber's idea of it anyway.

[Zanera]

Tag, you're it Ladies, Gentlemen, Ruffians, Trolls and Children of the RWDT. I have a question: how do you define the state? In many right wing(and a few left wing) models, the state does not have a monopoly on the use of force- party, church, and often family institutions are granted the legitimate right to the use of force in some circumstances.

gas, liquid, solid, plasma

Source?