RWDT XII - 12 Step program to get Right.

[Fahran]

I already denounced the death penalty.

Oh, good.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I support it. And yes, adultery should be illegal.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I already denounced the death penalty.

Oh, good.

My philosophy on the death penalty is that life is a divine gift created by God, and that only God may judge when someone should die (your people understand this well when they say that the True Judge is blessed). What God has given, let no man take away.

[Fahran]

My philosophy on the death penalty is that life is a divine gift created by God, and that only God may judge when someone should die (your people understand this well when they say that the True Judge is blessed). What God has given, let no man take away.

I'm inclined to concur with some qualifications as demanded by adherence to scripture and modern civil society.

[United Muscovite Nations]

My philosophy on the death penalty is that life is a divine gift created by God, and that only God may judge when someone should die (your people understand this well when they say that the True Judge is blessed). What God has given, let no man take away.

I'm inclined to concur with some qualifications as demanded by adherence to scripture and modern civil society.

Would you mind explaining some of the qualifications?

[Fahran]

Would you mind explaining some of the qualifications?

In Torah, we often describe David and Joshua as going out to wage war, the insinuation being that, when violence becomes necessary, we step outside of conventional social institutions and away from conventional social mores. We go out into a moral wilderness of sorts and acquire a distinct set of laws to address the needs that arise there. It's more or less a concession in Torah that war is a detestable and messy thing, not to be associated with conventional society. Additionally, G-d did allow for tribal vengeance as well, if we read the text more literally. Torah acknowledges many of the dark corners of human nature. It also maintains, however, that life is precious and that a Sanhedrin does not put to death any more than two people every seventy years, lest it should be seen as bloody.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Would you mind explaining some of the qualifications?

In Torah, we often describe David and Joshua as going out to wage war, the insinuation being that, when violence becomes necessary, we step outside of conventional social institutions and away from conventional social mores. We go out into a moral wilderness of sorts and acquire a distinct set of laws to address the needs that arise there. It's more or less a concession in Torah that war is a detestable and messy thing, not to be associated with conventional society. Additionally, G-d did allow for tribal vengeance as well, if we read the text more literally. Torah acknowledges many of the dark corners of human nature. It also maintains, however, that life is precious and that a Sanhedrin does not put to death any more than two people every seventy years, lest it should be seen as bloody.

True, however, I would argue that tribal vengeance is made obsolete by Christ by making all the world into the tribe of Israel. As for war, I agree it has to be considered outside of ordinary context; however, it should not be entered into lightly.

[Fahran]

True, however, I would argue that tribal vengeance is made obsolete by Christ by making all the world into the tribe of Israel.

My beliefs differ a touch from yours in that regard, I think.

That's a legitimate point from a Christian perspective, but inter-tribal violence within Am Yisrael is what I meant to address.

As for war, I agree it has to be considered outside of ordinary context; however, it should not be entered into lightly.

We concur on this point.

[Reikoku]

Oh, good.

My philosophy on the death penalty is that life is a divine gift created by God, and that only God may judge when someone should die (your people understand this well when they say that the True Judge is blessed). What God has given, let no man take away.

That's somewhat the same as mine, although different religious beliefs inform them. Death is evil and ought to be avoided at all cost and the state believing it has a right to destroy life is infringing on the divine prerogative.

[Luminesa]

Does anyone have any historical myths that are personal pet peeves? Mine is probably the Zen samurai myth.

I agree that the death penalty is too harsh to be used at all, but adultery should be a crime. Not only is it a crime against the spouse, it's a crime against society because it takes away trust between individuals and has the huge potential to harm any children in the mix.

So do a lot of other things, doesn't mean they should be illegal. That aside, historically speaking, women tended to be hit harder than men when it came to these laws being enforced. Just another reason not to be enthusiastic about imitating ISIS.

Stuff suggesting Joan of Arc was a witch, though that’s been largely disproven contrary to what Marches says.

[Fahran]

Stuff suggesting Joan of Arc was a witch, though that’s been largely disproven contrary to what Marches says.

Marches says all manner of silly things.

As for a cultural myth... the ceaseless portrayal of Jews as victims removed from mainstream society is irksome, especially given that we were often deeply involved in Gentile society and its intellectual movements. My favorite cultural myth is that Benjamin is a were-wolf and that Esau is a vampire. I'm still waiting for American pop culture to realize the gold-mine it's missing out on.

[Reikoku]

'He who cannot draw on three thousand years is living from hand to mouth.'

Is Herr Goethe correct?

[Minoa]

I agree that the death penalty is too harsh to be used at all, but adultery should be a crime. Not only is it a crime against the spouse, it's a crime against society because it takes away trust between individuals and has the huge potential to harm any children in the mix.

And also the consequences and backlash from a wrongful execution would be huge, which is why I do not support the death penalty except for the most serious of war crimes, and even then, not as a mandatory sentence if there is a shred of doubt.

Abolition for all crimes would be better: after all, there are reasonable alternatives such as a whole life sentence.

[The East Marches II]

It's the breach of a legal contract, there certainly must be penalties, or the contract is worthless.

Nowadays, marriage is more of an emotional contract that a legal contract

A total misunderstanding of the situation yet again. If were just an emotional contract, assets wouldn't be split, money out the ass wouldn't be paid. No wonder this system has been allowed to fall into such a state!

[Fahran]

'He who cannot draw on three thousand years is living from hand to mouth.'

Is Herr Goethe correct?

I believe so, yes. We must by necessity draw on the oldest themes of epic poetry and persist in pursuing and elaborating on them to effect the elevation of the human soul.

A total misunderstanding of the situation yet again. If were just an emotional contract, assets wouldn't be split, money out the ass wouldn't be paid. No wonder this system has been allowed to fall into such a state!

TEM, I never took you for such an ardent protector of the institution of marriage. It's quite quaint.

[Bienenhalde]

The state should have no part in marriage unless marriage serves some greater role in public life. As I have stated previously, I do not believe that marriage and sex are merely procreative in their nature. Such a notion retains minimal scriptural support and is not conducive to the cultivation of virtue within the individual, within familial units, or across society. At the same time, we must be clear that marriage does serve more than just the two people who trade vows, though they may be the principal beneficiaries of such a contract. Marriage is also a service to G-d, to family, to society, and to higher virtues. To love even, but not in the way that has been commonly meant. Not to a mere feeling or whimsy. This provides the only justification for state recognition of what has become an increasingly watered-down institution in public discourse.

Well, I suppose it depends how you define procreation. Rather than just conception and giving birth, procreation can be understood in the larger context of raising children and continuing a family line. But if procreation is not seen as important, this leads to very different views of marriage and sexuality; views which I am not so sure you would agree with.

[Fahran]

Well, I suppose it depends how you define procreation.

I was employing the more narrow definition of the word, that is to say "birthing children."

Rather than just conception and giving birth, procreation can be understood in the larger context of raising children and continuing a family line.

This would be one of the essential functions of sexuality and marriage, but, again, by no means is it the only one. Deepening the bond between romantic partners in acknowledgement that such a bond mirrors the relationship between G-d and the Jewish people or Christ and the Church is another important function. Growing as a person through love and family life is yet another one. Caring for and tending to one another's needs. Transmitting wholesome values onto subsequent generations. I could continue at length.

But if procreation is not seen as important, this leads to very different views of marriage and sexuality; views which I am not so sure you would agree with.

They're certainly important, as much as any mitzvah, but we should be careful not to reduce marriage to something cool and materialistic. It is materialistic in so far as it satisfies our more basal impulses in a virtuous way, but it spiritual as well - even when a modern state cannot acknowledge that aspect of marriage.

[Diopolis]

Yes. Sodomy and adultery should be felonies.

...Why? I mean, adultery is awful, for example, but if a couple can settle it out-of-court then it would be a waste of prison-space.

In reality, if a couple can settle out of court, then it probably won't make it to court.

[The Parkus Empire]

By this logic, should we not have the Death Penalty at all?

I’d say we don’t need the death penalty, yes. But we could start a whole thread on the death penalty.

That depends on whether you think the justice system is about punishing or not.

[The East Marches II]

TEM, I never took you for such an ardent protector of the institution of marriage. It's quite quaint.

You give me too much credit. I am merely stating reality.

[Fahran]

I’d say we don’t need the death penalty, yes. But we could start a whole thread on the death penalty.

That depends on whether you think the justice system is about punishing or not.

Not necessarily, though it's a decent place to begin.

You give me too much credit. I am merely stating reality.

I give everyone too much credit. It's my principal flaw after all.

[United Muscovite Nations]

That depends on whether you think the justice system is about punishing or not.

Not necessarily, though it's a decent place to begin.

You give me too much credit. I am merely stating reality.

I give everyone too much credit. It's my principal flaw after all.

Except me apparently, Miss "Everyone here but me supports the death penalty."

[The Parkus Empire]

Not necessarily, though it's a decent place to begin.


I give everyone too much credit. It's my principal flaw after all.

Except me apparently, Miss "Everyone here but me supports the death penalty."

That's because your brain is on Slavophile.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Except me apparently, Miss "Everyone here but me supports the death penalty."

That's because your brain is on Slavophile.

The sovereign sparing the evil from the worst punishments is an icon of God's mercy to sinners and is itself a divine mystery don't @ me

[The Parkus Empire]

That's because your brain is on Slavophile.

The sovereign sparing the evil from the worst punishments is an icon of God's mercy to sinners and is itself a divine mystery don't @ me

God shows mercy but he also punishes, and executing God's wrath is the sovereign's office, that's precisely and definitively distinguishes him from his subjects in his duty as a Christian.