RWDT XII - 12 Step program to get Right.

[Kramanica]

It was unconstitutional as all fuck. Doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says.

FDR was authoritarian as hell and the closest we ever came to a dictator.

I incredibly disagree with that, and the attitude of saying "fuck all" to the supreme court is about as valid as treating cancer with Homeotherapy.

It is universally recognized today as a bad ruling, and it had no constitutional basis at all. Imprisoning American citizens in concentration internment camps without trial and confiscating their property (without any compensation) is about as unconstitutional as you can get.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Stalin and his party murdered millions of people. The American government wasn't just sending over bags of money to the Kremlin, they were also helping to rebuild the lives of the common man who suffered from the destruction of the war. It is necessary to separate the leaders of a nation from their people at times.

You unironically think the Soviet government used that material for it's people? Really?

At any rate the common man is the backbone of a country. We shouldn't help make their stronger even if it went to the people. Don't be silly.

Well they didn't accept any post war material, as they actually denied the Marshall plan, so :^)

We are not, or at least should not, act like monsters. We shouldn't punish millions of innocent people because we don't like their self imposed tyrants.

[Kramanica]

It was unconstitutional as all fuck. Doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says.

FDR was authoritarian as hell and the closest we ever came to a dictator.

Eh, Jackson literally shot (sometimes lethally) his political opponents on the front lawn of the White House.

FDR has some tough competition for America's first dictator.

I find FDR to be worse.

[Benuty]

I incredibly disagree with that, and the attitude of saying "fuck all" to the supreme court is about as valid as treating cancer with Homeotherapy.

It is universally recognized today as a bad ruling, and it had no constitutional basis at all. Imprisoning American citizens in concentration internment camps and confiscating their property (without any compensation) is about as unconstitutional as you can get.

The keyword being "today", and even then that isn't universally applied since the government can appropriately use rulings of the past that should be considered unconstitutional today, but aren't by the simple fact the Supreme Court is slow.

[Benuty]

Eh, Jackson literally shot (sometimes lethally) his political opponents on the front lawn of the White House.

FDR has some tough competition for America's first dictator.

I find FDR to be worse.

I doubt anyone else could have done better in the war effort. The only mistake was failing to nuke the Soviets into oblivion while they were down, and of course General Marshall's interference in the last stages of the Chinese civil war. An action which delayed the nationalist offensive, and caused them to lose, but that is really Truman's issue rather than FDR's.

[Republic of the Cristo]

I incredibly disagree with that, and the attitude of saying "fuck all" to the supreme court is about as valid as treating cancer with Homeotherapy.

It is universally recognized today as a bad ruling, and it had no constitutional basis at all. Imprisoning American citizens in concentration internment camps without trial and confiscating their property (without any compensation) is about as unconstitutional as you can get.

Today. At the time, it was ruled constitutional.

And may I remind you of ARTICLE I, SECTION 9, CLAUSE 3 of the Constitution:

" No...ex post facto Law shall be passed. "

[Kramanica]

It is universally recognized today as a bad ruling, and it had no constitutional basis at all. Imprisoning American citizens in concentration internment camps and confiscating their property (without any compensation) is about as unconstitutional as you can get.

The keyword being "today", and even then that isn't universally applied since the government can appropriately use rulings of the past that should be considered unconstitutional today, but aren't by the simple fact the Supreme Court is slow.

That doesn't mean you can't look back and realize that the ruling has no constitutional basis at all, and that the government hid many of the facts from the court.

[Benuty]

Honestly, the New Englanders should have seceded when they had the chance, and the whole secession debate would have been solved incredibly prematurely regardless of who won.

[Kramanica]

I find FDR to be worse.

I doubt anyone else could have done better in the war effort. The only mistake was failing to nuke the Soviets into oblivion while they were down, and of course General Marshall's interference in the last stages of the Chinese civil war. An action which delayed the nationalist offensive, and caused them to lose, but that is really Truman's issue rather than FDR's.

I don't deny that he was a good wartime leader. But that doesn't change the fact that he ran the government as his own personal fiefdom.

[Kramanica]

It is universally recognized today as a bad ruling, and it had no constitutional basis at all. Imprisoning American citizens in concentration internment camps without trial and confiscating their property (without any compensation) is about as unconstitutional as you can get.

Today. At the time, it was ruled constitutional.

And may I remind you of ARTICLE I, SECTION 9, CLAUSE 3 of the Constitution:

" No...ex post facto Law shall be passed. "

And the court was wrong. Blatantly so.

[Benuty]

I doubt anyone else could have done better in the war effort. The only mistake was failing to nuke the Soviets into oblivion while they were down, and of course General Marshall's interference in the last stages of the Chinese civil war. An action which delayed the nationalist offensive, and caused them to lose, but that is really Truman's issue rather than FDR's.

I don't deny that he was a good wartime leader. But that doesn't change the fact that he ran the government as his own personal fiefdom.

Maybe, but sometimes you have to become the monster to defeat one. Lincoln understood this perfectly well but got a bullet for his troubles while FDR died comfortably in the middle of a painting session.

[Republic of the Cristo]

The keyword being "today", and even then that isn't universally applied since the government can appropriately use rulings of the past that should be considered unconstitutional today, but aren't by the simple fact the Supreme Court is slow.

That doesn't mean you can't look back and realize that the ruling has no constitutional basis at all, and that the government hid many of the facts from the court.

Constitutional basis, no. But legal and judicial basis? Yes.

[Canadensia]

Eh, Jackson literally shot (sometimes lethally) his political opponents on the front lawn of the White House.

FDR has some tough competition for America's first dictator.

At least Jackson, if he were president in the 1850s, would have been a justifiable dictator for lynching any, and all secessionists in order to prevent the civil war. A shame that wasn't the case, and we had idiots in the highest office twiddling their thumbs while the south detached itself from the union.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with you. Jackson was tough on the secessionist traitors within his own party, and like you say, if he'd been president during the 1850's those spineless cowards would have been hanged.

Sadly, America got stuck with Buchanan and his ilk instead.

[Kramanica]

I don't deny that he was a good wartime leader. But that doesn't change the fact that he ran the government as his own personal fiefdom.

Maybe, but sometimes you have to become the monster to defeat one. Lincoln understood this perfectly well but got a bullet for his troubles while FDR died comfortably in the middle of a painting session.

Oh please. Lincoln wouldn't have died had he simply had better security. And he is proof that even in times of civil war you don't need to be an asshole.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Today. At the time, it was ruled constitutional.

And may I remind you of ARTICLE I, SECTION 9, CLAUSE 3 of the Constitution:

" No...ex post facto Law shall be passed. "

And the court was wrong. Blatantly so.

And who entrusted to make such decisions, as laid out by our constitution? Kramancia's moral compass, or the Supreme Court of the United States?

[Kramanica]

That doesn't mean you can't look back and realize that the ruling has no constitutional basis at all, and that the government hid many of the facts from the court.

Constitutional basis, no. But legal and judicial basis? Yes.

Constitution > all other law

[The East Marches II]

You unironically think the Soviet government used that material for it's people? Really?

At any rate the common man is the backbone of a country. We shouldn't help make their stronger even if it went to the people. Don't be silly.

Well they didn't accept any post war material, as they actually denied the Marshall plan, so :^)

We are not, or at least should not, act like monsters. We shouldn't punish millions of innocent people because we don't like their self imposed tyrants.

No, they didn't need to, they took it all during the war. Which, they kindly enough now deny and cover up because its embarrassing that they had to be saved by the West. England too gave them much.

They chose that future, its on them. As for what you are talking about, its nothing short of appeasement. Which has never worked once.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Constitutional basis, no. But legal and judicial basis? Yes.

Constitution > all other law

Weird then how the supreme court never ruled it unconstitutional :^)

[Benuty]

Maybe, but sometimes you have to become the monster to defeat one. Lincoln understood this perfectly well but got a bullet for his troubles while FDR died comfortably in the middle of a painting session.

Oh please. Lincoln wouldn't have died had he simply had better security. And he is proof that even in times of civil war you don't need to be an asshole.

He would have probably been assassinated anyhow given he wouldn't be the last person in that century to get shot because of lack of foresight.

[Kramanica]

Constitution > all other law

Weird then how the supreme court never ruled it unconstitutional :^)

And?

[The East Marches II]

Constitution > all other law

Weird then how the supreme court never ruled it unconstitutional :^)

If you don't switch your flag to Palpatine I swear.

[Kramanica]

Oh please. Lincoln wouldn't have died had he simply had better security. And he is proof that even in times of civil war you don't need to be an asshole.

He would have probably been assassinated anyhow given he wouldn't be the last person in that century to get shot because of lack of foresight.

Maybe. But I don't see how him getting assassinated proves FDR was better.

[The Portland Territory]

Honestly, the New Englanders should have seceded when they had the chance, and the whole secession debate would have been solved incredibly prematurely regardless of who won.

Lord God please no! Don't leave me stuck with these people!

[Republic of the Cristo]

Well they didn't accept any post war material, as they actually denied the Marshall plan, so :^)

We are not, or at least should not, act like monsters. We shouldn't punish millions of innocent people because we don't like their self imposed tyrants.

No, they didn't need to, they took it all during the war. Which, they kindly enough now deny and cover up because its embarrassing that they had to be saved by the West. England too gave them much.

They chose that future, its on them. As for what you are talking about, its nothing short of appeasement. Which has never worked once.

And a lot of the equipment which we gave them got destroyed during the war. They weren't just stockpiling M4 shermans back in Moscow, they being sent out to the meat grinder. A measure which was necessary to ensure victory against Nazi Germany.

What is more, you will recall that the communist government wasn't voted into power. Ensuring that millions of innocent people, people who helped us win the worst war in human history, don't starve or die because of typhoid isn't appeasement, it humanity - if not just plain courtesy. At least when compared to:

" Hey, screw you for being intrinsic for our victory over the Nazis. Rot in hell for being our ally!

[Benuty]

He would have probably been assassinated anyhow given he wouldn't be the last person in that century to get shot because of lack of foresight.

Maybe. But I don't see how him getting assassinated proves FDR was better.

I don't think you understood my point at all. FDR getting shot would have made him a martyr like many people pan Lincoln out to be even though he gave no thought to ultimately ending slavery till it suited propaganda campaign purposes.