RWDT XII - 12 Step program to get Right.

[The East Marches II]

The enemy within tbh, we never learn

Eh, you got your revenge at Sinai.

America played a far greater role in the fall of the British Empire than most people are probably aware.

The enemy within again tbh. I was referring to our traitors who gave away the nuke secrets. The end of the Empires was a mistake. Idealism gets you nothing in the end as we so found out.

[Bienenhalde]

Eh, you got your revenge at Sinai.

America played a far greater role in the fall of the British Empire than most people are probably aware.

The enemy within again tbh. I was referring to our traitors who gave away the nuke secrets. The end of the Empires was a mistake. Idealism gets you nothing in the end as we so found out.

I do not see how colonizing other countries is morally acceptable. And even from a strictly pragmatic view, all the money and military action required to maintain control over colonies is an inefficient waste.

[Canadensia]

Eh, you got your revenge at Sinai.

America played a far greater role in the fall of the British Empire than most people are probably aware.

The enemy within again tbh. I was referring to our traitors who gave away the nuke secrets. The end of the Empires was a mistake. Idealism gets you nothing in the end as we so found out.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

You thoroughly shattered the mercantilist empires and opened up the former colonies to unlimited American trade and economic domination, which is pretty much the United States' wet dream made manifest. You are the eternal Merchant Republic after all, no?

[The East Marches II]

The enemy within again tbh. I was referring to our traitors who gave away the nuke secrets. The end of the Empires was a mistake. Idealism gets you nothing in the end as we so found out.

Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

You thoroughly shattered the mercantilist empires and opened up the former colonies to unlimited American trade and economic domination, which is pretty much the United States' wet dream made manifest. You are the eternal Merchant Republic after all, no?

But there was a catch, you have to stabilize them for markets to work, that is assuming they can be stabilized American style. We were better off selling directly to England than now to her colonies with all the added cost of being a good guy.

[The East Marches II]

The enemy within again tbh. I was referring to our traitors who gave away the nuke secrets. The end of the Empires was a mistake. Idealism gets you nothing in the end as we so found out.

I do not see how colonizing other countries is morally acceptable. And even from a strictly pragmatic view, all the money and military action required to maintain control over colonies is an inefficient waste.

It's their money, men and time being wasted! Not ours

[Bienenhalde]

I do not see how colonizing other countries is morally acceptable. And even from a strictly pragmatic view, all the money and military action required to maintain control over colonies is an inefficient waste.

It's their money, men and time being wasted! Not ours

Who are "they"? The citizens of one's country? Government leaders should focus on helping their own citizens, not wasting taxpayer money and military manpower invading foreign countries.

[Canadensia]

Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

You thoroughly shattered the mercantilist empires and opened up the former colonies to unlimited American trade and economic domination, which is pretty much the United States' wet dream made manifest. You are the eternal Merchant Republic after all, no?

But there was a catch, you have to stabilize them for markets to work, that is assuming they can be stabilized American style. We were better off selling directly to England than now to her colonies with all the added cost of being a good guy.

Eh, I'd argue it was moreso allowing China and Russia to move in and corner the market.

Should have just done in Africa what you were doing in Latin America for the better part of a century with your banana republics until you pulled out for "moral reasons". Pfft, liberals getting all uppity about economically hamstringing countries to the point where they're basically run by American private interests. You let all the talk about fair wages and human rights get in the way of running a trade empire. Meanwhile Ivan and Mao were raping and massacring their way across the African continent under the guise of "national independence", and no one was batting an eye.

If you aren't willing to go full Machiavellian in your foreign policy, then don't even bother trying. Just stay home and run your protectionist Whig state.

[The East Marches II]

But there was a catch, you have to stabilize them for markets to work, that is assuming they can be stabilized American style. We were better off selling directly to England than now to her colonies with all the added cost of being a good guy.

Eh, I'd argue it was moreso allowing China and Russia to move in and corner the market.

Should have just done in Africa what you were doing in Latin America for the better part of a century with your banana republics until you pulled out for "moral reasons". Pfft, liberals getting all uppity about economically hamstringing countries to the point where they're basically run by American private interests. You let all the talk about fair wages and human rights get in the way of running a trade empire. Meanwhile Ivan and Mao were raping and massacring their way across the African continent under the guise of "national independence", and no one was batting an eye.

If you aren't willing to go full Machiavellian in your foreign policy, then don't even bother trying. Just stay home and run your protectionist Whig state.

I agree entirely. Good guy syndrome is a terrible disease. Though I'd appreciate if you refrained from Whig in that last part. Though it is in general a correct assessment.

[Canadensia]

Eh, I'd argue it was moreso allowing China and Russia to move in and corner the market.

Should have just done in Africa what you were doing in Latin America for the better part of a century with your banana republics until you pulled out for "moral reasons". Pfft, liberals getting all uppity about economically hamstringing countries to the point where they're basically run by American private interests. You let all the talk about fair wages and human rights get in the way of running a trade empire. Meanwhile Ivan and Mao were raping and massacring their way across the African continent under the guise of "national independence", and no one was batting an eye.

If you aren't willing to go full Machiavellian in your foreign policy, then don't even bother trying. Just stay home and run your protectionist Whig state.

I agree entirely. Good guy syndrome is a terrible disease. Though I'd appreciate if you refrained from Whig in that last part. Though it is in general a correct assessment.

Yeah, playing White Knight has its drawbacks...

I'm curious though, wouldn't you be in favour of the Whigs considering their anti-popery?

[The East Marches II]

I agree entirely. Good guy syndrome is a terrible disease. Though I'd appreciate if you refrained from Whig in that last part. Though it is in general a correct assessment.

Yeah, playing White Knight has its drawbacks...

I'm curious though, wouldn't you be in favour of the Whigs considering their anti-popery?

I took that as Whig history rather than the party like a fool. I am anti-Papist immigration, I wouldn't want that to be confused.

[Bienenhalde]

Eh, I'd argue it was moreso allowing China and Russia to move in and corner the market.

Should have just done in Africa what you were doing in Latin America for the better part of a century with your banana republics until you pulled out for "moral reasons". Pfft, liberals getting all uppity about economically hamstringing countries to the point where they're basically run by American private interests. You let all the talk about fair wages and human rights get in the way of running a trade empire. Meanwhile Ivan and Mao were raping and massacring their way across the African continent under the guise of "national independence", and no one was batting an eye.

If you aren't willing to go full Machiavellian in your foreign policy, then don't even bother trying. Just stay home and run your protectionist Whig state.

Lack of fair wages and worker's rights does not just hurt the Third World, it also hurts American workers who cannot compete because their jobs get outsourced to countries with lower wages and less regulation. That is why so many Americans nowadays are supporting protectionism.

[Canadensia]

Yeah, playing White Knight has its drawbacks...

I'm curious though, wouldn't you be in favour of the Whigs considering their anti-popery?

I took that as Whig history rather than the party like a fool. I am anti-Papist immigration, I wouldn't want that to be confused.

Ah, no worries.

Eh, I'd argue it was moreso allowing China and Russia to move in and corner the market.

Should have just done in Africa what you were doing in Latin America for the better part of a century with your banana republics until you pulled out for "moral reasons". Pfft, liberals getting all uppity about economically hamstringing countries to the point where they're basically run by American private interests. You let all the talk about fair wages and human rights get in the way of running a trade empire. Meanwhile Ivan and Mao were raping and massacring their way across the African continent under the guise of "national independence", and no one was batting an eye.

If you aren't willing to go full Machiavellian in your foreign policy, then don't even bother trying. Just stay home and run your protectionist Whig state.

Lack of fair wages and worker's rights does not just hurt the Third World, it also hurts American workers who cannot compete because their jobs get outsourced to countries with lower wages and less regulation. That is why so many Americans nowadays are supporting protectionism.

True, but that's moreso a problem of lack of regulation and patriotism amongst the business elite, more than anything.

[Bienenhalde]

True, but that's moreso a problem of lack of regulation and patriotism amongst the business elite, more than anything.

But doesn't that prove that exploiting low-wage labor in the Third World is inconsistent with protecting workers in America or any other first-world nation?

[Benuty]

And illegally imprisoned thousands of US citizens.

Legally imprisoned thousands of US citizens.

No leader is perfect, and that was certainly one of the darker parts of his presidency. Regardless, he was a good leader.

Today it would be incredibly illegal but in the context of the wartime years, it most certainly was legal.

[Canadensia]

True, but that's moreso a problem of lack of regulation and patriotism amongst the business elite, more than anything.

But doesn't that prove that exploiting low-wage labor in the Third World is inconsistent with protecting workers in America or any other first-world nation?

I wouldn't say so.

While it's certainly a risk, it can easily be prevented by ensuring that foreign outsourcing doesn't go beyond the primary sector. That way, you still keep your domestic manufacturing base whilst simultaneously being capable of going full Capitalist Machiavellian with limited ramifications on the home economy. Naturally, the primary sector at home will still suffer, but the damage to the nation as a whole will be mitigated.

And at any rate, things like domestic food production are a national interest, so farm subsidies can maintain the agricultural sector in particular while still abusing the crap out of the Third World.

[Benuty]

Legally imprisoned thousands of US citizens.

No leader is perfect, and that was certainly one of the darker parts of his presidency. Regardless, he was a good leader.

No, it was illegal and I'm pretty certain SCOTUS later said so after he died. He was a traitor to the United States and you sound like one yourself my good man.

Illegal in retrospect Wash just like how Jim Crow was perfectly legal until the Supreme Court decided to reverse their earlier decision.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Terrible bit that. Helping the people who helped us win the war rebuild their wrecked and destroyed country.

Because as we all know.

Yes, helping the people who murdered millions of their own, and had plans to enslave Eastern Europe is really bad. Especially when they are gonna be your post war rivals. You should want to leave them wallowing in poverty.

Stalin and his party murdered millions of people. The American government wasn't just sending over bags of money to the Kremlin, they were also helping to rebuild the lives of the common man who suffered from the destruction of the war. It is necessary to separate the leaders of a nation from their people at times.

[Benuty]

Quite the opposite actually:

Korematsu v. United States

That's literally one of the most famously bad cases ever now that I remember it. Ye olde government suppressed evidence and blatantly lied about everything to get the ruling they wanted. The real kicker is that .gov has since admitted they were wrong and the decision is resoundingly ignored nowadays because of how horrifically flawed it was.

It's hardly the first bad ruling by SCOTUS hell the Obama administration used a ruling that considered non-anglos "savage alien races" in regards to statehood for the territories.

[Kramanica]

And illegally imprisoned thousands of US citizens.

Legally imprisoned thousands of US citizens.

No leader is perfect, and that was certainly one of the darker parts of his presidency. Regardless, he was a good leader.

It was unconstitutional as all fuck. Doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says.

FDR was authoritarian as hell and the closest we ever came to a dictator.

[The East Marches II]

Yes, helping the people who murdered millions of their own, and had plans to enslave Eastern Europe is really bad. Especially when they are gonna be your post war rivals. You should want to leave them wallowing in poverty.

Stalin and his party murdered millions of people. The American government wasn't just sending over bags of money to the Kremlin, they were also helping to rebuild the lives of the common man who suffered from the destruction of the war. It is necessary to separate the leaders of a nation from their people at times.

You unironically think the Soviet government used that material for it's people? Really?

At any rate the common man is the backbone of a country. We shouldn't help make their stronger even if it went to the people. Don't be silly.

[Benuty]

Legally imprisoned thousands of US citizens.

No leader is perfect, and that was certainly one of the darker parts of his presidency. Regardless, he was a good leader.

It was unconstitutional as all fuck. Doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says.

FDR was authoritarian as hell and the closest we ever came to a dictator.

I incredibly disagree with that, and the attitude of saying "fuck all" to the supreme court is about as valid as treating cancer with Homeotherapy.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Quite the opposite actually:

Korematsu v. United States

That's literally one of the most famously bad cases ever now that I remember it. Ye olde government suppressed evidence and blatantly lied about everything to get the ruling they wanted. The real kicker is that .gov has since admitted they were wrong and the decision is resoundingly ignored nowadays because of how horrifically flawed it was.

I don't know the specifics of the trial, but I do know that ex-post facto is illegal.

It was ruled, at the time, by the supreme court that the action was in fact legal. If there was another future court case declaring that that was not so ( none comes to mind ), than that still would not mean that said action was illegal at the time - only from the newest court case onward.

[Benuty]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_Cases

I stand corrected it was a matter of citizenship, not statehood, and specifically used in the matter of American Samoa it still stands the Obama administration knew what they were getting into by going full edgelord.

[Canadensia]

Legally imprisoned thousands of US citizens.

No leader is perfect, and that was certainly one of the darker parts of his presidency. Regardless, he was a good leader.

It was unconstitutional as all fuck. Doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says.

FDR was authoritarian as hell and the closest we ever came to a dictator.

Eh, Jackson literally shot (sometimes lethally) his political opponents on the front lawn of the White House.

FDR has some tough competition for America's first dictator.

[Benuty]

It was unconstitutional as all fuck. Doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says.

FDR was authoritarian as hell and the closest we ever came to a dictator.

Eh, Jackson literally shot (sometimes lethally) his political opponents on the front lawn of the White House.

FDR has some tough competition for America's first dictator.

At least Jackson, if he were president in the 1850s, would have been a justifiable dictator for lynching any, and all secessionists in order to prevent the civil war. A shame that wasn't the case, and we had idiots in the highest office twiddling their thumbs while the south detached itself from the union.