Mass killer becomes incel hero

[Ostroeuropa]

This is worthless to the discussion and now that you've said your piece I guess you're done and have nothing else to contribute, so good job.
Unless you're here to tell us that the way to fix this is to ignore these damaged men and their social isolation and instead waffle more about how people need to respect women, despite women being viewed far more positively than men already?

I responded to you several times about ways to help the issue. They still hate women, through and through, but their issues are valid. Men need positive reinforcement, and the chains of toxic masculinity that bind them to be a certain way or another need to be peed on because they hurt men as a whole.

It's not sufficient to talk about positive reinforcement rather than confront misandry. This is ignored because it means criticizing womens behavior too.

[Des-Bal]

I don't misunderstand it, I reject it as feminist nonsense based in the impulsive prejudice the worldview fosters instead of evidence.

If a woman up and decides she can't handle the bullshit people give her anymore for leaving her kid at home to have a job and decides to become a stay at home mom, that isn't "Toxic femininity.", it's misogyny forcing her to act a certain way.

Calling it toxic masculinity is a means to once again shift focus onto lecturing men and demanding they change instead of actually dealing with their problems.

So we're not complaining about the phenomena, just the names we give them. Maybe it's a bad name but misandry is a broad category of behaviors and opinions while toxic masculinity is a narrower one.

Then I'll consider you a part of the problem.

Consider me part of the problem as well. My expressions of emotion are muted, I default to anger, and I treat a display of genuine emotion as a failure to control my outward appearance. It's probably not healthy but it's a big part of what makes me effective.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't misunderstand it, I reject it as feminist nonsense based in the impulsive prejudice the worldview fosters instead of evidence.

If a woman up and decides she can't handle the bullshit people give her anymore for leaving her kid at home to have a job and decides to become a stay at home mom, that isn't "Toxic femininity.", it's misogyny forcing her to act a certain way.

Calling it toxic masculinity is a means to once again shift focus onto lecturing men and demanding they change instead of actually dealing with their problems.

What? How is it nonsense if it explains the issues you talk of aswell? The idea behind toxic masculinity is to give men the possiblity to be individuals, free of the toxicity following maleness. The idea has always been that society and culture is behind it, not men. Men are victims, same as all, of the culture that crushes us all.

I agree that the terminology isn't the same but these kind of women who force themselves and eachother to act a certain way go into the same quadrant as men who espouse toxic masculinity.

Look at the difference between these terms, think really hard about it, and if you still don't see the problem, there's no point.

Internalized Misogyny
Toxic Masculinity

[Reformed Houn]

I responded to you several times about ways to help the issue. They still hate women, through and through, but their issues are valid. Men need positive reinforcement, and the chains of toxic masculinity that bind them to be a certain way or another need to be peed on because they hurt men as a whole.

It's not sufficient to talk about positive reinforcement rather than confront misandry. This is ignored because it means criticizing womens behavior too.

There is no misandry in wanting to break down the societal norm about masculinity and the made up negatives that come with it. You can criticize women all you want, but they are not to blame for the acts of a fucking murderer.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

I don't misunderstand it, I reject it as feminist nonsense based in the impulsive prejudice the worldview fosters instead of evidence.

If a woman up and decides she can't handle the bullshit people give her anymore for leaving her kid at home to have a job and decides to become a stay at home mom, that isn't "Toxic femininity.", it's misogyny forcing her to act a certain way.

Calling it toxic masculinity is a means to once again shift focus onto lecturing men and demanding they change instead of actually dealing with their problems.

So we're not complaining about the phenomena, just the names we give them. Maybe it's a bad name but misandry is a broad category of behaviors and opinions while toxic masculinity is a narrower one.

Then I'll consider you a part of the problem.

Consider me part of the problem as well. My expressions of emotion are muted, I default to anger, and I treat a display of genuine emotion as a failure to control my outward appearance. It's probably not healthy but it's a big part of what makes me effective.

And that is very sad. That you feel that your emotions should be muted out of how you were raised. You are a victim of the system in that way.

[Reformed Houn]

What? How is it nonsense if it explains the issues you talk of aswell? The idea behind toxic masculinity is to give men the possiblity to be individuals, free of the toxicity following maleness. The idea has always been that society and culture is behind it, not men. Men are victims, same as all, of the culture that crushes us all.

I agree that the terminology isn't the same but these kind of women who force themselves and eachother to act a certain way go into the same quadrant as men who espouse toxic masculinity.

Look at the difference between these terms, think really hard about it, and if you still don't see the problem, there's no point.

Internalized Misogyny
Toxic Masculinity

The terminology was developed by earlier feminists who were, by far, very as you'd put it "gynocentric" and extremely racist as well. I don't think anyone would object to you using toxic femininity to describe women enforcing social roles on each other though, fits quite well.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Not having a culture that flaunts sex everywhere and makes it extremely visible while also restrictive to certain people. Liberalization of sexuality has made it more inaccessible, rather than less.

I don’t see how that works
If I grew up say, in the 50s I’d be treated as a horrible sexual monster, not a woman you can put your peepee in

If you grew up in the 50's you'd be a completely different person with totally different tastes in sexuality. Most people would get by in any sexual norm situation (minus polygamy, which introduces artificial scarcity to the number of sexual partners), but different systems have different ways to deal with those who can't get by on their own.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's not sufficient to talk about positive reinforcement rather than confront misandry. This is ignored because it means criticizing womens behavior too.

There is no misandry in wanting to break down the societal norm about masculinity and the made up negatives that come with it. You can criticize women all you want, but they are not to blame for the acts of a fucking murderer.

"The societal norm about masculinity."
It's not masculinity. It's the effects of misandry on men.

The reason feminists use the terminology they use is the massive section of them who cry and shit their pants when the notion of misandry is brought up, so even the ones who accept it end up using stupid terms like toxic masculinity instead of telling the truth and calling it internalized misandry because they're tied at the hip to a massive section of female supremacists who constantly toxify their discourse and terminology.

[Ostroeuropa]

Look at the difference between these terms, think really hard about it, and if you still don't see the problem, there's no point.

Internalized Misogyny
Toxic Masculinity

The terminology was developed by earlier feminists who were, by far, very as you'd put it "gynocentric" and extremely racist as well. I don't think anyone would object to you using toxic femininity to describe women enforcing social roles on each other though, fits quite well.

Herein lies the problem. You're assuming toxic masculinity is enforced by men on men. There is no evidence of that. In fact, the evidence suggests it's more likely to be women that enforce the norms.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

It's not sufficient to talk about positive reinforcement rather than confront misandry. This is ignored because it means criticizing womens behavior too.

There is no misandry in wanting to break down the societal norm about masculinity and the made up negatives that come with it. You can criticize women all you want, but they are not to blame for the acts of a fucking murderer.

I've always understood the term as being very detrimental to men and that yes, it is a terrible conduct of society. A society that victimizes men into thinking that to be a real man^tm they have to be robots, emotionless. Maybe I'm a misandrist then, but I don't think I am.

[Petrasylvania]

There is no misandry in wanting to break down the societal norm about masculinity and the made up negatives that come with it. You can criticize women all you want, but they are not to blame for the acts of a fucking murderer.

"The societal norm about masculinity."
It's not masculinity. It's the effects of misandry on men.

The reason feminists use the terminology they use is the massive section of them who cry and shit their pants when the notion of misandry is brought up, so even the ones who accept it end up using stupid terms like toxic masculinity instead of telling the truth and calling it internalized misandry because they're tied at the hip to a massive section of female supremacists who constantly toxify their discourse and terminology.

I get it, you hate women who refuse to submit.

[The Blaatschapen]

I don't misunderstand it, I reject it as feminist nonsense based in the impulsive prejudice the worldview fosters instead of evidence.

If a woman up and decides she can't handle the bullshit people give her anymore for leaving her kid at home to have a job and decides to become a stay at home mom, that isn't "Toxic femininity.", it's misogyny forcing her to act a certain way.

Calling it toxic masculinity is a means to once again shift focus onto lecturing men and demanding they change instead of actually dealing with their problems.

So we're not complaining about the phenomena, just the names we give them. Maybe it's a bad name but misandry is a broad category of behaviors and opinions while toxic masculinity is a narrower one.

Then I'll consider you a part of the problem.

Consider me part of the problem as well. My expressions of emotion are muted, I default to anger, and I treat a display of genuine emotion as a failure to control my outward appearance. It's probably not healthy but it's a big part of what makes me effective.

I won't. It's one thing to have grown up to become like that. It's another to purposely pass it on.

[Reformed Houn]

There is no misandry in wanting to break down the societal norm about masculinity and the made up negatives that come with it. You can criticize women all you want, but they are not to blame for the acts of a fucking murderer.

"The societal norm about masculinity."
It's not masculinity. It's the effects of misandry on men.

The reason feminists use the terminology they use is the massive section of them who cry and shit their pants when the notion of misandry is brought up, so even the ones who accept it end up using stupid terms like toxic masculinity instead of telling the truth and calling it internalized misandry because they're tied at the hip to a massive section of female supremacists who constantly toxify their discourse and terminology.

Indeed it is. You needing to have a girlfriend, boys not crying, boys not showing emotions, boys being boys when they fight. This is far far older than feminism.

Sure there might be misandrists. But I highly doubt a woman who wants men to not be tied to societal norms is one. Toxic masculinty fits the properties perfectly, it toxifies what a man is supposed to be negatively.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

"The societal norm about masculinity."
It's not masculinity. It's the effects of misandry on men.

The reason feminists use the terminology they use is the massive section of them who cry and shit their pants when the notion of misandry is brought up, so even the ones who accept it end up using stupid terms like toxic masculinity instead of telling the truth and calling it internalized misandry because they're tied at the hip to a massive section of female supremacists who constantly toxify their discourse and terminology.

I get it, you hate women who refuse to submit.

I don't think he is saying that at all.

[New Emeline]

There is no misandry in wanting to break down the societal norm about masculinity and the made up negatives that come with it. You can criticize women all you want, but they are not to blame for the acts of a fucking murderer.

"The societal norm about masculinity."
It's not masculinity. It's the effects of misandry on men.

The reason feminists use the terminology they use is the massive section of them who cry and shit their pants when the notion of misandry is brought up, so even the ones who accept it end up using stupid terms like toxic masculinity instead of telling the truth and calling it internalized misandry because they're tied at the hip to a massive section of female supremacists who constantly toxify their discourse and terminology.

Toxic masculinity is the idea of an unattainable "masculine" ideal that causes harm to men
Misandry is hatred of/sexism towards men
Internalized misogyny is women who hate/are sexist towards women
Toxic femininity should be used as a term more. It would mean an unattainable "feminine" ideal that causes harm towards women
Toxic masculinity/femininity is different from internalized misandry/misogyny

[Albrenia]

This is so many shades of fucked up.

Talking about the earlier posts of what many of the incels and some of their detractors believe and advocate.

[Ostroeuropa]

"The societal norm about masculinity."
It's not masculinity. It's the effects of misandry on men.

The reason feminists use the terminology they use is the massive section of them who cry and shit their pants when the notion of misandry is brought up, so even the ones who accept it end up using stupid terms like toxic masculinity instead of telling the truth and calling it internalized misandry because they're tied at the hip to a massive section of female supremacists who constantly toxify their discourse and terminology.

Indeed it is. You needing to have a girlfriend, boys not crying, boys not showing emotions, boys being boys when they fight. This is far far older than feminism.

Sure there might be misandrists. But I highly doubt a woman who wants men to not be tied to societal norms is one. Toxic masculinty fits the properties perfectly, it toxifies what a man is supposed to be negatively.

Isn't it interesting that men in male only spaces show less toxic masculinity?

[Reformed Houn]

The terminology was developed by earlier feminists who were, by far, very as you'd put it "gynocentric" and extremely racist as well. I don't think anyone would object to you using toxic femininity to describe women enforcing social roles on each other though, fits quite well.

Herein lies the problem. You're assuming toxic masculinity is enforced by men on men. There is no evidence of that. In fact, the evidence suggests it's more likely to be women that enforce the norms.

Of course it is. If you cry in a traditional household as a boy, your father will tell you to stop. If you cry as a boy on a playground, the boys will bully you. Women do ofc enforce the norms because society dictates that this is what a man is supposed to be, but it's toxic masculintiy that's causing it.

[Reformed Houn]

Indeed it is. You needing to have a girlfriend, boys not crying, boys not showing emotions, boys being boys when they fight. This is far far older than feminism.

Sure there might be misandrists. But I highly doubt a woman who wants men to not be tied to societal norms is one. Toxic masculinty fits the properties perfectly, it toxifies what a man is supposed to be negatively.

Isn't it interesting that men in male only spaces show less toxic masculinity?

Men get loose, sure. Being with friends is always a freeing experience.

[Des-Bal]

And that is very sad. That you feel that your emotions should be muted out of how you were raised. You are a victim of the system in that way.

Everyone has a tale of sorrow. I do well in hospitals, I do well at police stations, I got hit by a car walking to work and I put in overtime. I'm very capable and that capability is directly tied to the fact that my reactions to gifts are less than stellar.

[The Blaatschapen]

Indeed it is. You needing to have a girlfriend, boys not crying, boys not showing emotions, boys being boys when they fight. This is far far older than feminism.

Sure there might be misandrists. But I highly doubt a woman who wants men to not be tied to societal norms is one. Toxic masculinty fits the properties perfectly, it toxifies what a man is supposed to be negatively.

Isn't it interesting that men in male only spaces show less toxic masculinity?

Like the incel space. Oh, wait.

[Ostroeuropa]

Herein lies the problem. You're assuming toxic masculinity is enforced by men on men. There is no evidence of that. In fact, the evidence suggests it's more likely to be women that enforce the norms.

Of course it is. If you cry in a traditional household as a boy, your father will tell you to stop. If you cry as a boy on a playground, the boys will bully you. Women do ofc enforce the norms because society dictates that this is what a man is supposed to be, but it's toxic masculintiy that's causing it.

This is a narrative gynocentric feminism has asserted because of the prejudice of its founders, it is not based in fact, it is merely asserted dogmatically based on an anti-male framework. Study and evidence shows this isn't the case.
Men are lax about enforcing norms around other men.
Women enforce them everywhere.
When you mix the groups, men start enforcing them.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5711000321

[Galloism]

I'll consider this but allow me to ask you a question: what can incels do, for those who truly want a romantic relationship or romantic affection, to get said affection? Because you see, the Toronto incident garners no sympathy from society, or a desire to understand how to help. What do you think can be done to aid?

Well, prostitution is legal here. So you can get an escort and pay for the girlfriend experience.

So set up a fund to help lonely men afford that

Didn't you adopt the Nordic model in like 2014?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Herein lies the problem. You're assuming toxic masculinity is enforced by men on men. There is no evidence of that. In fact, the evidence suggests it's more likely to be women that enforce the norms.

Of course it is. If you cry in a traditional household as a boy, your father will tell you to stop. If you cry as a boy on a playground, the boys will bully you. Women do ofc enforce the norms because society dictates that this is what a man is supposed to be, but it's toxic masculintiy that's causing it.

I think that what Ostro objects is that it's called ''toxic masculinity''. When in reality is just toxicity in general. We do it to men, we do it to women. You have no idea how many times my choice not to have children when I'm in my late 30s has been seen as bad and selfish by other women, and other men. My desire to focus on career and my partner only have been seen as meek and very un-feminine by other women I know. Or as mean by some men. I dare say it's the same thing men go through when they're told that ''men don't cry'', ''only girls cry'', ''man up'', etc.

[The Blaatschapen]

Well, prostitution is legal here. So you can get an escort and pay for the girlfriend experience.

So set up a fund to help lonely men afford that

Didn't you adopt the Nordic model in like 2014?

No idea. Also, I meant here as in Germany (where I live now) . Not even sure how it works in NL.