Mass killer becomes incel hero

[United Citizens of North America]

Full disclosure: I'm a feminist, I have been trying for days to stop my flight or fight reflex regarding this incident. What I have seen has been very toxic, however, if I give into this feeling, I won't be able to at least give it a try in understanding from where you're coming from. Help me to understand. What sort of changes do you propose we should engage in regarding public sexuality?

Not having a culture that flaunts sex everywhere and makes it extremely visible while also restrictive to certain people. Liberalization of sexuality has made it more inaccessible, rather than less.

All true, the men are left behind by a changing society. What do you think can make them get back into society, without deliberalizing sexuality?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Full disclosure: I'm a feminist, I have been trying for days to stop my flight or fight reflex regarding this incident. What I have seen has been very toxic, however, if I give into this feeling, I won't be able to at least give it a try in understanding from where you're coming from. Help me to understand. What sort of changes do you propose we should engage in regarding public sexuality?

Not having a culture that flaunts sex everywhere and makes it extremely visible while also restrictive to certain people. Liberalization of sexuality has made it more inaccessible, rather than less.

So you suggest a more conservative approach to sex? I don't think there's anything wrong about the visibility of sex everywhere, however, if you're someone who is more conservative, I can see how this seems to be affecting you. Would you compromise in a mixed or more varied approach, where sex is liberal but not restrictive to those who are not as liberal? Or am I not understanding you?

[The Blaatschapen]

It's also made it a fuckton easier for abused people to get rid of bad relationships. Rejecting it's importance is outright ludicrous.

I'm not saying we have to get rid of it entirely, but we need some kind of synthesis. Social institutions that provided ways to meet people and form relationships for thousands of years were totally erased in the past hundred, and so far there has been little attempt to replace them.

There's Tinder

[Reformed Houn]

It's also made it a fuckton easier for abused people to get rid of bad relationships. Rejecting it's importance is outright ludicrous.

I'm not saying we have to get rid of it entirely, but we need some kind of synthesis. Social institutions that provided ways to meet people and form relationships for thousands of years were totally erased in the past hundred, and so far there has been little attempt to replace them.

What kind of synthesis? Laws to dictate relationships or something along that? It'd ridiculous. Before it, families promised their daughters and sons to be wed. That is oppressive to both sexes. And yeah, people form relationships over the internet for a reason.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Full disclosure: I'm a feminist, I have been trying for days to stop my flight or fight reflex regarding this incident. What I have seen has been very toxic, however, if I give into this feeling, I won't be able to at least give it a try in understanding from where you're coming from. Help me to understand. What sort of changes do you propose we should engage in regarding public sexuality?

Kill toxic masculinity. Kill it.

Every time a parent says "don't cry, be a big boy! " to their son, shame them.

Seriously we, as a gender, are trained from a young age to repress most of our feelings. Except anger.

Start there, Sexuality will follow.

I agree that toxicity should go. I agree and vouch that if I have a son, I will try my hardest to not train him with toxic behaviors. Boy, men, are people who have feelings and there's no harm in them showing that. It's cruel to expect otherwise.

[Ostroeuropa]

Not having a culture that flaunts sex everywhere and makes it extremely visible while also restrictive to certain people. Liberalization of sexuality has made it more inaccessible, rather than less.

So you suggest a more conservative approach to sex? I don't think there's anything wrong about the visibility of sex everywhere, however, if you're someone who is more conservative, I can see how this seems to be affecting you. Would you compromise in a mixed or more varied approach, where sex is liberal but not restrictive to those who are not as liberal? Or am I not understanding you?

I think his point is that flaunting casual sex everywhere is potentially demoralizing and damaging to people like the disabled, unattractive, and socially awkward. These people are often "restricted" from it.

It's like being invited to a party and you can't go home for hours, and everyone is choosing to fuck right in front of you and excluding you.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Full disclosure: I'm a feminist, I have been trying for days to stop my flight or fight reflex regarding this incident. What I have seen has been very toxic, however, if I give into this feeling, I won't be able to at least give it a try in understanding from where you're coming from. Help me to understand. What sort of changes do you propose we should engage in regarding public sexuality?

Not having a culture that flaunts sex everywhere and makes it extremely visible while also restrictive to certain people. Liberalization of sexuality has made it more inaccessible, rather than less.

I don’t see how that works
If I grew up say, in the 50s I’d be treated as a horrible sexual monster, not a woman you can put your peepee in

[Reformed Houn]

I for an example am way too eccentric for anyone from my country to tolerate me in a conversation, so my fiancé is from France. It just happens eventually, for most people atleast.

[Reformed Houn]

So you suggest a more conservative approach to sex? I don't think there's anything wrong about the visibility of sex everywhere, however, if you're someone who is more conservative, I can see how this seems to be affecting you. Would you compromise in a mixed or more varied approach, where sex is liberal but not restrictive to those who are not as liberal? Or am I not understanding you?

I think his point is that flaunting casual sex everywhere is potentially demoralizing and damaging to people like the disabled, unattractive, and socially awkward. These people are often "restricted" from it.

It's like being invited to a party and you can't go home for hours, and everyone is choosing to fuck right in front of you and excluding you.

No they're not. These kind of people still form relationships especially over the internet. The sole reason these incels are alone is that they just purely hate women.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'm not saying we have to get rid of it entirely, but we need some kind of synthesis. Social institutions that provided ways to meet people and form relationships for thousands of years were totally erased in the past hundred, and so far there has been little attempt to replace them.

There's Tinder

Tinder and other dating sites don't work because they provide little ability to socialize with people. When you go on tinder, you're looking first and foremost for someone to have sex with, and maybe a relationship will follow that. I think that people need to start out just looking at people for friendship, and then advancing to a relationship, and then sex if it gets far enough. It hugely broadens your options, because when you're just looking for someone to have sex with, you're more picky.

[The Blaatschapen]

Kill toxic masculinity. Kill it.

Every time a parent says "don't cry, be a big boy! " to their son, shame them.

Seriously we, as a gender, are trained from a young age to repress most of our feelings. Except anger.

Start there, Sexuality will follow.

I agree that toxicity should go. I agree and vouch that if I have a son, I will try my hardest to not train him with toxic behaviors. Boy, men, are people who have feelings and there's no harm in them showing that. It's cruel to expect otherwise.

Good.

We agree here

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

So you suggest a more conservative approach to sex? I don't think there's anything wrong about the visibility of sex everywhere, however, if you're someone who is more conservative, I can see how this seems to be affecting you. Would you compromise in a mixed or more varied approach, where sex is liberal but not restrictive to those who are not as liberal? Or am I not understanding you?

I think his point is that flaunting casual sex everywhere is potentially demoralizing and damaging to people like the disabled, unattractive, and socially awkward. These people are often "restricted" from it.

It's like being invited to a party and you can't go home for hours, and everyone is choosing to fuck right in front of you and excluding you.

Ok. I'll be honest, I don't know what to do.

[Ostroeuropa]

Full disclosure: I'm a feminist, I have been trying for days to stop my flight or fight reflex regarding this incident. What I have seen has been very toxic, however, if I give into this feeling, I won't be able to at least give it a try in understanding from where you're coming from. Help me to understand. What sort of changes do you propose we should engage in regarding public sexuality?

Kill toxic masculinity. Kill it.

Every time a parent says "don't cry, be a big boy! " to their son, shame them.

Seriously we, as a gender, are trained from a young age to repress most of our feelings. Except anger.

Start there, Sexuality will follow.

Toxic masculinity is not the root of these problems. Misandry is. *Sigh*

Fucks sake.
Isn't it strange that removing male role models makes the childs masculinity more likely to be toxic?

Almost like this feminist claptrap about it being masculinity that has always been the problem is an ideological assertion in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

"Hey, destroying the chain of influence with regards to masculinity makes the problems worse. Hmmmm."
(When a theory makes shit predictions, in science, we call that "Being wrong")

[Reformed Houn]

Kill toxic masculinity. Kill it.

Every time a parent says "don't cry, be a big boy! " to their son, shame them.

Seriously we, as a gender, are trained from a young age to repress most of our feelings. Except anger.

Start there, Sexuality will follow.

Toxic masculinity is not the root of these problems. Misandry is. *Sigh*

Fucks sake.
Isn't it strange that removing male role models makes the childs masculinity more likely to be toxic?

Almost like this feminist claptrap about it being masculinity that has always been the problem is an ideological assertion in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

You completely misunderstand toxic masculinity. Masculinity is good, it's only natural. Toxic masculinity is the unnatural and societally pushed parts of being a man, such as not being a virgin to be respected.

[Reformed Houn]

There's Tinder

Tinder and other dating sites don't work because they provide little ability to socialize with people. When you go on tinder, you're looking first and foremost for someone to have sex with, and maybe a relationship will follow that. I think that people need to start out just looking at people for friendship, and then advancing to a relationship, and then sex if it gets far enough. It hugely broadens your options, because when you're just looking for someone to have sex with, you're more picky.

Then go to other more conversation oriented sites, like facebook groups.

[Ostroeuropa]

I think his point is that flaunting casual sex everywhere is potentially demoralizing and damaging to people like the disabled, unattractive, and socially awkward. These people are often "restricted" from it.

It's like being invited to a party and you can't go home for hours, and everyone is choosing to fuck right in front of you and excluding you.

No they're not. These kind of people still form relationships especially over the internet. The sole reason these incels are alone is that they just purely hate women.

This is worthless to the discussion and now that you've said your piece I guess you're done and have nothing else to contribute, so good job.
Unless you're here to tell us that the way to fix this is to ignore these damaged men and their social isolation and instead waffle more about how people need to respect women, despite women being viewed far more positively than men already?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Kill toxic masculinity. Kill it.

Every time a parent says "don't cry, be a big boy! " to their son, shame them.

Seriously we, as a gender, are trained from a young age to repress most of our feelings. Except anger.

Start there, Sexuality will follow.

Toxic masculinity is not the root of these problems. Misandry is. *Sigh*

Fucks sake.
Isn't it strange that removing male role models makes the childs masculinity more likely to be toxic?

Almost like this feminist claptrap about it being masculinity that has always been the problem is an ideological assertion in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

"Hey, destroying the chain of influence with regards to masculinity makes the problems worse. Hmmmm."
(When a theory makes shit predictions, in science, we call that "Being wrong")

Well, Ostro, you can agree that we, as a society, are crippling men emotionally from a very early age. I recall my brother being told by my dad and mom, heck even my grandma, more than once, that ''men don't cry'' when he would cry as a little boy. That emotionally stunts people. That is toxic. I think that is a step towards making it more equal to men in society.

[Saiwania]

Kill toxic masculinity. Kill it. Every time a parent says "don't cry, be a big boy! " to their son, shame them.
Seriously we, as a gender, are trained from a young age to repress most of our feelings. Except anger. Start there, Sexuality will follow.

I can't be shamed out of doing precisely this. I genuinely believe that it is unbecoming of a male to cry in public or to show everyone their weakness. There is a time and place to vent, but in situations where they're more open to ridicule; that isn't ideal. They need to become tough and resilient.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'm not saying we have to get rid of it entirely, but we need some kind of synthesis. Social institutions that provided ways to meet people and form relationships for thousands of years were totally erased in the past hundred, and so far there has been little attempt to replace them.

What kind of synthesis? Laws to dictate relationships or something along that? It'd ridiculous. Before it, families promised their daughters and sons to be wed. That is oppressive to both sexes. And yeah, people form relationships over the internet for a reason.

Obviously something like arranged marriages is draconian and won't work, but that doesn't mean that society should just let people succeed or fail based entirely on their own ability. I think you'd probably find a fair number of women who resent the modern romantic economy as well. The main point I'm trying to make though is that people who want to get help in getting a romantic partner shouldn't just be told they're out of luck. Dating sites have picked up on this, they're just very inefficient at doing so.

[Des-Bal]

Toxic masculinity is not the root of these problems. Misandry is. *Sigh*

Fucks sake.
Isn't it strange that removing male role models makes the childs masculinity more likely to be toxic?

Almost like this feminist claptrap about it being masculinity that has always been the problem is an ideological assertion in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

"Hey, destroying the chain of influence with regards to masculinity makes the problems worse. Hmmmm."
(When a theory makes shit predictions, in science, we call that "Being wrong")

So my understanding of toxic masculinity is the idea that subscribing to certain traditional ideas is bad for men. What are you saying that doesn't fit into that.

[The Blaatschapen]

Kill toxic masculinity. Kill it. Every time a parent says "don't cry, be a big boy! " to their son, shame them.
Seriously we, as a gender, are trained from a young age to repress most of our feelings. Except anger. Start there, Sexuality will follow.

I can't be shamed out of doing precisely this. I genuinely believe that it is unbecoming of a male to cry in public or to show everyone their weakness. There is a time and place to vent, but in situations where they're more open to ridicule; that isn't ideal. They need to become tough and resilient.

Then I'll consider you a part of the problem.

[Reformed Houn]

No they're not. These kind of people still form relationships especially over the internet. The sole reason these incels are alone is that they just purely hate women.

This is worthless to the discussion and now that you've said your piece I guess you're done and have nothing else to contribute, so good job.
Unless you're here to tell us that the way to fix this is to ignore these damaged men and their social isolation and instead waffle more about how people need to respect women, despite women being viewed far more positively than men already?

I responded to you several times about ways to help the issue. They still hate women, through and through, but their issues are valid. Men need positive reinforcement, and the chains of toxic masculinity that bind them to be a certain way or another need to be peed on because they hurt men as a whole.

[Ostroeuropa]

Toxic masculinity is not the root of these problems. Misandry is. *Sigh*

Fucks sake.
Isn't it strange that removing male role models makes the childs masculinity more likely to be toxic?

Almost like this feminist claptrap about it being masculinity that has always been the problem is an ideological assertion in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

You completely misunderstand toxic masculinity. Masculinity is good, it's only natural. Toxic masculinity is the unnatural and societally pushed parts of being a man, such as not being a virgin to be respected.

I don't misunderstand it, I reject it as feminist nonsense based in the impulsive prejudice the worldview fosters instead of evidence.

If a woman up and decides she can't handle the bullshit people give her anymore for leaving her kid at home to have a job and decides to become a stay at home mom, that isn't "Toxic femininity.", it's misogyny forcing her to act a certain way.

Calling it toxic masculinity is a means to once again shift focus onto lecturing men and demanding they change instead of actually dealing with their problems.

If we acted like the people who throw aroudn toxic masculinity on this topic we'd just tell that women to suck it up and that its fine to have a job.
See?
WE'RE HELPING!
It's fine to have a job hun! We're helping!
Now get out there and go back to the building full of peopple who treat you like shit that we've actively tried to distract people from acknowledging or talking about.

The worthlessness of the feminist lens when it comes to dealing with mens issues, again.
It was designed from day 1 to explain womens experience of sexism, stop using it to discuss mens lives and problems. You know eurocentrism?
Gynocentrism.

Stop it.

[Saiwania]

Then I'll consider you a part of the problem.

It is how I was raised and I don't know of a better way without you know- producing some pantywaist of a kid who is less equipped to deal with the outside world that will be hostile at times.

[Reformed Houn]

You completely misunderstand toxic masculinity. Masculinity is good, it's only natural. Toxic masculinity is the unnatural and societally pushed parts of being a man, such as not being a virgin to be respected.

I don't misunderstand it, I reject it as feminist nonsense based in the impulsive prejudice the worldview fosters instead of evidence.

If a woman up and decides she can't handle the bullshit people give her anymore for leaving her kid at home to have a job and decides to become a stay at home mom, that isn't "Toxic femininity.", it's misogyny forcing her to act a certain way.

Calling it toxic masculinity is a means to once again shift focus onto lecturing men and demanding they change instead of actually dealing with their problems.

What? How is it nonsense if it explains the issues you talk of aswell? The idea behind toxic masculinity is to give men the possiblity to be individuals, free of the toxicity following maleness. The idea has always been that society and culture is behind it, not men. Men are victims, same as all, of the culture that crushes us all.

I agree that the terminology isn't the same but these kind of women who force themselves and eachother to act a certain way go into the same quadrant as men who espouse toxic masculinity.