Mass killer becomes incel hero

[Costa Fierro]

Feel free to continue apologising for the mass murderer.

I'm doing no such thing.

[Fartsniffage]

Feel free to continue apologising for the mass murderer.

I'm doing no such thing.

Yes you are. And it's pathetic.

[New Emeline]

You can't just diagnose entire swathes of society as sociopathic.
It's an actual mental condition, not just a word for "people I don't like". It's like saying "well Scientology is completely absurd, so Scientologists must have schizophrenia".

How about the clips of women audiences laughing about male castration? That kind of behavior is literally one of the symptoms of sociopathy.
Society-wide sociopathy against males is basically a description of the status quo.

Acknowledging it is necessary to change it. You can find another term if you like, this one seems fine to me.

So in that same vein, could I use "get back to the kitchen" jokes as an argument for male sociopathy against women?

Probably not, I would say.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm doing no such thing.

Yes you are. And it's pathetic.

Acknowledging push/pull factors is important to preventing repeats.

[Liriena]

I think both of you are thinking of this in black and white terms a bit too much. Fartsniffage could do with a more empathetic approach, and you could be a bit less apologetic of them. You've made your point about incels being conditioned by genuinely bad social, cultural and economic factors, but now you are erring on the side of excessive sympathy towards a group of people who are not purely victims of wholesome character. A lot of incels are malicious and hurtful, and they are entirely responsible for their abusive behavior towards others. We can empathize with their insecurities, their hopelessness, their marginalization, but we can't paper over their rabid, often violent misogyny.

A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.


At worst, it's a dishonest conflation of the MRM with something worse, but the MRM is not all men. The MRM is not all manhood. Depicting MRAs as similar to incels is crappy, but it's nowhere near an attempt to demonize half of the human species.

All forms of mens activism related to this topic are conflated. That is an attack on half the species.

Would an attack on all forms of feminism be an attack on half the species too?

The virulent misogyny is often explicitly backed through examination of mens mistreatment by society and the failure of the feminist movement and modern society to acknowledge and address it.

The way the MRM is treated is often used as the centerpiece for the evidence red pillers and the like use to argue that there is a biological defect in womens brains that makes them incapable of fairly treating others.

This is not two sides of people who hate eachother for unrelated reasons.

The misogyny of incels and red pillers is directly rooted in oppression of males. It's like anti-colonial extremists who engage in violence, and that isn't helped by shrieking that Gandhi is a violent murderer just like the others as our society currently does with mens issues.

These deaths are not controllable without addressing misandry. But because feminist dogmatists are in charge, they will do what people in power have always done when they are inherently a bunch of fuck ups.
The same thing, but harder.

We'll see more deaths as a result of the feminist compulsion to escalate on the anti-male treatment and rhetoric instead of actually addressing these issues.

Again you engage in pure apologia. You insist on framing the incel ideology and its roots as exclusively founded on your own supposedly legitimate grievances. Even if you don't intend to be, the way you frame this is exculpatory; it removes any agency, responsibility and even the capacity to be just plain wrong on a fundamental level from these people, and doesn't even entertain the idea that the problem might not be exclusively one of misandrist oppression and women being bitches.

If feminism sometimes overidealizes women, demonizes men and frames every problem as one of male dominance and misogyny, you sure are doing a heck of a job playing mirror to it.

[Valgora]

You can't just diagnose entire swathes of society as sociopathic.
It's an actual mental condition, not just a word for "people I don't like". It's like saying "well Scientology is completely absurd, so Scientologists must have schizophrenia".

How about the clips of women audiences laughing about male castration? That kind of behavior is literally one of the symptoms of sociopathy.
Society-wide sociopathy against males is basically a description of the status quo.

Acknowledging it is necessary to change it. You can find another term if you like, this one seems fine to me.

Anti-Social Personality Disorder is a disorder in which one basically doesn't give a shit about morals or other people. I doubt these women you are talking about don't ignore morals or the rights (there may be a different term instead of rights but I can't remember) of others.
"Those with antisocial personality disorder tend to lie, break laws, act impulsively, and lack regard for their own safety or the safety of others."

And Sociopathy is expressed by a fairly small number of people.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'm doing no such thing.

Yes you are. And it's pathetic.

Saying that someone isn't a lunatic for doing something isn't apologizing for it.

[New Emeline]

How about the clips of women audiences laughing about male castration? That kind of behavior is literally one of the symptoms of sociopathy.
Society-wide sociopathy against males is basically a description of the status quo.

Acknowledging it is necessary to change it. You can find another term if you like, this one seems fine to me.

Anti-Social Personality Disorder is a disorder in which one basically doesn't give a shit about morals or other people. I doubt these women you are talking about don't ignore morals or the rights (there may be a different term instead of rights but I can't remember) of others

And Sociopathy is expressed by a fairly small number of people.

This.
ASPD is a mental disorder that has to be diagnosed, just like any other.

[Ostroeuropa]

All forms of mens activism related to this topic are conflated. That is an attack on half the species.

Would an attack on all forms of feminism be an attack on half the species too?

The virulent misogyny is often explicitly backed through examination of mens mistreatment by society and the failure of the feminist movement and modern society to acknowledge and address it.

The way the MRM is treated is often used as the centerpiece for the evidence red pillers and the like use to argue that there is a biological defect in womens brains that makes them incapable of fairly treating others.

This is not two sides of people who hate eachother for unrelated reasons.

The misogyny of incels and red pillers is directly rooted in oppression of males. It's like anti-colonial extremists who engage in violence, and that isn't helped by shrieking that Gandhi is a violent murderer just like the others as our society currently does with mens issues.

These deaths are not controllable without addressing misandry. But because feminist dogmatists are in charge, they will do what people in power have always done when they are inherently a bunch of fuck ups.
The same thing, but harder.

We'll see more deaths as a result of the feminist compulsion to escalate on the anti-male treatment and rhetoric instead of actually addressing these issues.

Again you engage in pure apologia. You insist on framing the incel ideology and its roots as exclusively founded on your own supposedly legitimate grievances. Even if you don't intend to be, the way you frame this is exculpatory; it removes any agency, responsibility and even the capacity to be just plain wrong on a fundamental level from these people, and doesn't even entertain the idea that the problem might not be exclusively one of misandrist oppression and women being bitches.

If feminism sometimes overidealizes women, demonizes men and frames every problem as one of male dominance and misogyny, you sure are doing a heck of a job playing mirror to it.

1. I addressed this.
No. Because feminism is not the same thing as All Womens Activism, despite trying hard to insist it is so. If literally any womens movement or organization was demonized as the same thing as misandry, that would be equivalent.

2. He should be in jail as should anyone who is a danger to society. Probably permanently, though i'm skeptical about life without parole as a concept and my record shows it. In terms of dealing with him as an individual there is nothing to debate. The push/pull factors involved are the discussion worth having.

[Fartsniffage]

Yes you are. And it's pathetic.

Saying that someone isn't a lunatic for doing something isn't apologizing for it.

You think people who commit mass murder are't lunatics?

[Ostroeuropa]

Saying that someone isn't a lunatic for doing something isn't apologizing for it.

You think people who commit mass murder are't lunatics?

It would be nice to think they were, but our canine teeth aren't merely for show. It doesn't take psychosis to want to hurt or kill people, just relegating them into acceptable prey as a category. Suppression of empathy for prey is a survival mechanism, and is not the same thing as hallucinations.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Saying that someone isn't a lunatic for doing something isn't apologizing for it.

You think people who commit mass murder are't lunatics?

I think many people who do so aren't. The idea that only lunatics are capable of killing people is ridiculous and doesn't hold up to even basic scrutiny.

[Fartsniffage]

You think people who commit mass murder are't lunatics?

It would be nice to think they were, but our canine teeth aren't merely for show. It doesn't take psychosis to want to hurt or kill people, just relegating them into acceptable prey as a category. Suppression of empathy for prey is a survival mechanism, and is not the same thing as hallucinations.

But then you include the autism. And you realise that autism plus intent to murder means the person should be locked up.

[New Emeline]

To clear things up: sociopathy/ASPD is not only characterized by lack of empathy. That is one of the symptoms. Being sad does not make one depressed, even if sadness is a symptom of depression.

[Ostroeuropa]

To clear things up: sociopathy/ASPD is not only characterized by lack of empathy. That is one of the symptoms. Being sad does not make one depressed, even if sadness is a symptom of depression.

Fair enough, I didn't mean for it to be taken literally and I shouldn't have used legitimate mental disorders figuratively either.

[Ostroeuropa]

It would be nice to think they were, but our canine teeth aren't merely for show. It doesn't take psychosis to want to hurt or kill people, just relegating them into acceptable prey as a category. Suppression of empathy for prey is a survival mechanism, and is not the same thing as hallucinations.

But then you include the autism. And you realise that autism plus intent to murder means the person should be locked up.

Idk.
I think the autism was an aggravating factor in the social isolation, rather than an aggravating factor in the murders, it's a subtle difference but there. Treatment of men with disabilities is the issue there.

[Liriena]

This is the sort of circular defeatism that incels use to justify their own seclusive radicalization. It's what their ideologues use to convince recruits that they should vehemently reject any attempts to get them psychiatric or psychological help.

This likely stems from previous experiences where people have insincerely engaged with them in order to further their own goals or simply out of amusement. People aren't going to be as trusting of the intentions of others if the latter has not approached them in the past with sincerity.

And again with the apologia.

Are incels ever just plain wrong in your eyes?

You and Costa really are pushing the limits of what could be construed as empathy, and bordering what could be construed as apologia.

With me at least it's not so much empathy, it's shared experiences of being the ugly/loner kid that people picked on for fun.

I was the ugly/loner kid that people picked on for fun too, but you don't see me go around trying to sugarcoat the actions and ideology of people who had similar experiences but then went on to become malicious piles of scum towards an entire gender (and pretty much all of humanity).

I was awkward as hell around girls in my teenage years. It sucked. It hurt a lot. I came out of secondary school feeling extremely insecure and isolated, with very low self-esteem. The whole "it's over" nonsense that incels tell each other? I told it to myself too.

But I never, ever, got online to circle jerk about how oppressed I was by "femoids" and how they should all be made into sex slaves or genocided. I didn't dehumanize all women and join a cult to the most sickening, mishappen idea of masculinity I've ever encountered. I didn't make the idiotic commitment to "go my own way" or declare myself party of a "subhuman" minority of rejects.

I got therapy. I worked hard to improve myself. I stumbled (a lot). I got better. Eventually I got to the point where I loved myself. And now most of my friends are women, and I empathize with them just as much as I do with my male friends. It's awesome.

I can empathize with where incels came from, but I will not sympathize or make excuses for where they are now, or gloss over the dangerous garbage that their worldview and movement are.

[Fartsniffage]

But then you include the autism. And you realise that autism plus intent to murder means the person should be locked up.

Idk.
I think the autism was an aggravating factor in the social isolation, rather than an aggravating factor in the murders, it's a subtle difference but there. Treatment of men with disabilities is the issue there.

Only in your world.

Or do you think that women with autism get an easy ride?

[New Emeline]

To clear things up: sociopathy/ASPD is not only characterized by lack of empathy. That is one of the symptoms. Being sad does not make one depressed, even if sadness is a symptom of depression.

Fair enough, I didn't mean for it to be taken literally and I shouldn't have used legitimate mental disorders figuratively either.

It's just a bit of a pet peeve of mine.

[36 Camera Perspective]

It's extremely difficult for actual clinicians to detect sociopathy, so I think the prospect of a presumably untrained internet poster doing so successfully is pretty dim.

[Albrenia]

A person who kills 10 people and injures 16 more and then begs the police to shoot them is a lunatic.

If he'd asked for help before doing that then I'd have a huge amount of sympathy for him, he didn't.

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

I'm pretty damn sure men go to therapists too and get good results. Hell, I am a dude, I did go and it did help. The therapist was a women too.

[Liriena]

You can't just diagnose entire swathes of society as sociopathic.
It's an actual mental condition, not just a word for "people I don't like". It's like saying "well Scientology is completely absurd, so Scientologists must have schizophrenia".

How about the clips of women audiences laughing about male castration? That kind of behavior is literally one of the symptoms of sociopathy.
Society-wide sociopathy against males is basically a description of the status quo.

Acknowledging it is necessary to change it. You can find another term if you like, this one seems fine to me.

If you think laughter at something awful is automatically a symptom of sociopathy, then you are the least qualified person in the world to diagnose massive amounts of people with it.

My heartfelt recommendation: stay in your fooking lane.

[36 Camera Perspective]

To clear things up: sociopathy/ASPD is not only characterized by lack of empathy. That is one of the symptoms. Being sad does not make one depressed, even if sadness is a symptom of depression.

Fair enough, I didn't mean for it to be taken literally and I shouldn't have used legitimate mental disorders figuratively either.

I just read this. My bad bro.

[Ostroeuropa]

Idk.
I think the autism was an aggravating factor in the social isolation, rather than an aggravating factor in the murders, it's a subtle difference but there. Treatment of men with disabilities is the issue there.

Only in your world.

Or do you think that women with autism get an easy ride?

I was unaware you were from a planet other than earth, but I suppose that explains your view on the matter.

In social terms? Easier, yes, social isolation among men is an epidemic. Women with autism have it more difficult in terms of diagnosis, the way it presents in women is different and often overlooked, but overall the social support networks and stuff available to women compensate for the social isolation of mental disability, especially considering that non-normative males are in general treated as disposable outcasts far more often than women are.

[Ostroeuropa]

How about the clips of women audiences laughing about male castration? That kind of behavior is literally one of the symptoms of sociopathy.
Society-wide sociopathy against males is basically a description of the status quo.

Acknowledging it is necessary to change it. You can find another term if you like, this one seems fine to me.

If you think laughter at something awful is automatically a symptom of sociopathy, then you are the least qualified person in the world to diagnose massive amounts of people with it.

My heartfelt recommendation: stay in your fooking lane.

The laughter isn't nervous in nature for the clips i'm talking about, and nor is the laughter at male rape victims and domestic violence victims. It is a general response to male suffering because of societies prejudices and refusal to acknowledge men as beings with an internal experience worth considering.