Mass killer becomes incel hero

[Ostroeuropa]

They're not lunatics. They're people. If we stopped dehumanising others, we'd actually make a lot of progress in doing something to address these problems than simply just viewing them as perpetrators of their own social isolation.

A person who kills 10 people and injures 16 more and then begs the police to shoot them is a lunatic.

If he'd asked for help before doing that then I'd have a huge amount of sympathy for him, he didn't.

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

[Liriena]

You're right. We used to lock lunatics like this in asylums, now we let them run around in the community.

They're not lunatics. They're people. If we stopped dehumanising others, we'd actually make a lot of progress in doing something to address these problems than simply just viewing them as perpetrators of their own social isolation.

I think both of you are thinking of this in black and white terms a bit too much. Fartsniffage could do with a more empathetic approach, and you could be a bit less apologetic of them. You've made your point about incels being conditioned by genuinely bad social, cultural and economic factors, but now you are erring on the side of excessive sympathy towards a group of people who are not purely victims of wholesome character. A lot of incels are malicious and hurtful, and they are entirely responsible for their abusive behavior towards others. We can empathize with their insecurities, their hopelessness, their marginalization, but we can't paper over their rabid, often violent misogyny.

A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.

I love the projection at play here. Mainstream media starts paying attention to an extremely awful ideology that now has blood on its hands, and you interpret it as a witch hunt against all men.

Because it is.

At worst, it's a dishonest conflation of the MRM with something worse, but the MRM is not all men. The MRM is not all manhood. Depicting MRAs as similar to incels is crappy, but it's nowhere near an attempt to demonize half of the human species.

[Fartsniffage]

A person who kills 10 people and injures 16 more and then begs the police to shoot them is a lunatic.

If he'd asked for help before doing that then I'd have a huge amount of sympathy for him, he didn't.

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

Something tends to happen if you tell people that you're going to be a mass murderer.

[New Emeline]

A person who kills 10 people and injures 16 more and then begs the police to shoot them is a lunatic.

If he'd asked for help before doing that then I'd have a huge amount of sympathy for him, he didn't.

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

Therapists don't help men?

[Costa Fierro]

They're not lunatics. They're people. If we stopped dehumanising others, we'd actually make a lot of progress in doing something to address these problems than simply just viewing them as perpetrators of their own social isolation.

A person who kills 10 people and injures 16 more and then begs the police to shoot them is a lunatic.

If he'd asked for help before doing that then I'd have a huge amount of sympathy for him, he didn't.

Not asking for help doesn't mean that he didn't want or need it. Men don't ask for help because there's a huge amount of stigma surrounding mental health as is, let alone added social pressure for men to not be seen to admit weakness, especially if it's mental health issues. And even if they do ask for help, mental health in many Western countries is notoriously underfunded and resources in many instances simply do not exist in the capacity that they need to in order to be effective. And that's before we get to the fact that therapy is not often subsidised and is prohibitively expensive. And in the end, it sometimes doesn't work. Elliot Roger for example spent 14 years going to different therapists. That still didn't stop him from doing what he did.

So before you go about making assumptions, how about taking a couple of seconds out of your precious time to consider the reasons why people often don't seek help and if they do, how underfunded and under-resourced that help often is.

[United Muscovite Nations]

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

Therapists don't help men?

It's not so much that so much as that therapists often don't understand problems related to social isolation.

[Ostroeuropa]

They're not lunatics. They're people. If we stopped dehumanising others, we'd actually make a lot of progress in doing something to address these problems than simply just viewing them as perpetrators of their own social isolation.

I think both of you are thinking of this in black and white terms a bit too much. Fartsniffage could do with a more empathetic approach, and you could be a bit less apologetic of them. You've made your point about incels being conditioned by genuinely bad social, cultural and economic factors, but now you are erring on the side of excessive sympathy towards a group of people who are not purely victims of wholesome character. A lot of incels are malicious and hurtful, and they are entirely responsible for their abusive behavior towards others. We can empathize with their insecurities, their hopelessness, their marginalization, but we can't paper over their rabid, often violent misogyny.

A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.

Because it is.

At worst, it's a dishonest conflation of the MRM with something worse, but the MRM is not all men. The MRM is not all manhood. Depicting MRAs as similar to incels is crappy, but it's nowhere near an attempt to demonize half of the human species.

All forms of mens activism related to this topic are conflated. That is an attack on half the species.

The virulent misogyny is often explicitly backed through examination of mens mistreatment by society and the failure of the feminist movement and modern society to acknowledge and address it.

The way the MRM is treated is often used as the centerpiece for the evidence red pillers and the like use to argue that there is a biological defect in womens brains that makes them incapable of fairly treating others.

This is not two sides of people who hate eachother for unrelated reasons.

The misogyny of incels and red pillers is directly rooted in oppression of males. It's like anti-colonial extremists who engage in violence, and that isn't helped by shrieking that Gandhi is a violent murderer just like the others as our society currently does with mens issues.

These deaths are not controllable without addressing misandry. But because feminist dogmatists are in charge, they will do what people in power have always done when they are inherently a bunch of fuck ups.
The same thing, but harder.

We'll see more deaths as a result of the feminist compulsion to escalate on the anti-male treatment and rhetoric instead of actually addressing these issues.

[Costa Fierro]

Something tends to happen if you tell people that you're going to be a mass murderer.

Except people often don't do this.

It's not so much that so much as that therapists often don't understand problems related to social isolation.

Bingo. Elliot Rogers tried this for 14 years and it still didn't work. But every man is different.

Therapists don't help men?

Therapy is hit and miss. Depending on who you get, it can be effective or it can do nothing. I went to therapy as a child for my phobias. By and large they've mostly disappeared but I still have astraphobia which, thankfully, doesn't rear it's head very often. My therapist tried to fix that and it didn't work, and the other phobias simply went away with age. She also suggested some treatments which could have ended up giving me cardiac arrest at age eight but meh, I'm still around so thankfully it didn't.

[New Emeline]

I think both of you are thinking of this in black and white terms a bit too much. Fartsniffage could do with a more empathetic approach, and you could be a bit less apologetic of them. You've made your point about incels being conditioned by genuinely bad social, cultural and economic factors, but now you are erring on the side of excessive sympathy towards a group of people who are not purely victims of wholesome character. A lot of incels are malicious and hurtful, and they are entirely responsible for their abusive behavior towards others. We can empathize with their insecurities, their hopelessness, their marginalization, but we can't paper over their rabid, often violent misogyny.

A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.


At worst, it's a dishonest conflation of the MRM with something worse, but the MRM is not all men. The MRM is not all manhood. Depicting MRAs as similar to incels is crappy, but it's nowhere near an attempt to demonize half of the human species.

All forms of mens activism related to this topic are conflated. That is an attack on half the species.

The virulent misogyny is often explicitly backed through examination of mens mistreatment by society and the failure of the feminist movement and modern society to acknowledge and address it.

The way the MRM is treated is often used as the centerpiece for the evidence red pillers and the like use to argue that there is a biological defect in womens brains that makes them incapable of fairly treating others.

This is not two sides of people who hate eachother for unrelated reasons.

The misogyny of incels and red pillers is directly rooted in oppression of males. It's like anti-colonial extremists who engage in violence, and that isn't helped by shrieking that Gandhi is a violent murderer just like the others as our society currently does with mens issues.

These deaths are not controllable without addressing misandry. But because feminist dogmatists are in charge, they will do what people in power have always done when they are inherently a bunch of fuck ups.
The same thing, but harder.

We'll see more deaths as a result of the feminist compulsion to escalate on the anti-male treatment and rhetoric instead of actually addressing these issues.

were you not earlier arguing that women are sociopaths

[Fartsniffage]

A person who kills 10 people and injures 16 more and then begs the police to shoot them is a lunatic.

If he'd asked for help before doing that then I'd have a huge amount of sympathy for him, he didn't.

Not asking for help doesn't mean that he didn't want or need it. Men don't ask for help because there's a huge amount of stigma surrounding mental health as is, let alone added social pressure for men to not be seen to admit weakness, especially if it's mental health issues. And even if they do ask for help, mental health in many Western countries is notoriously underfunded and resources in many instances simply do not exist in the capacity that they need to in order to be effective. And that's before we get to the fact that therapy is not often subsidised and is prohibitively expensive. And in the end, it sometimes doesn't work. Elliot Roger for example spent 14 years going to different therapists. That still didn't stop him from doing what he did.

So before you go about making assumptions, how about taking a couple of seconds out of your precious time to consider the reasons why people often don't seek help and if they do, how underfunded and under-resourced that help often is.

You mean kinda like why I didn't ask for help before downing a 500ml bottle of liquid morphine?

Stop making assumptions.

[Ostroeuropa]

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

Therapists don't help men?

Studies suggest therapy benefits women more than men, perhaps because methods are geared towards that. The mens mental health crisis is in part due to this.
More likely it's because you can't be "Therapied" out of society actively mistreating you. It is not a matter of merely getting over some mental bloc. Shit has to change to help men.

Therapists don't help men?

It's not so much that so much as that therapists often don't understand problems related to social isolation.

This.

[Ostroeuropa]

All forms of mens activism related to this topic are conflated. That is an attack on half the species.

The virulent misogyny is often explicitly backed through examination of mens mistreatment by society and the failure of the feminist movement and modern society to acknowledge and address it.

The way the MRM is treated is often used as the centerpiece for the evidence red pillers and the like use to argue that there is a biological defect in womens brains that makes them incapable of fairly treating others.

This is not two sides of people who hate eachother for unrelated reasons.

The misogyny of incels and red pillers is directly rooted in oppression of males. It's like anti-colonial extremists who engage in violence, and that isn't helped by shrieking that Gandhi is a violent murderer just like the others as our society currently does with mens issues.

These deaths are not controllable without addressing misandry. But because feminist dogmatists are in charge, they will do what people in power have always done when they are inherently a bunch of fuck ups.
The same thing, but harder.

We'll see more deaths as a result of the feminist compulsion to escalate on the anti-male treatment and rhetoric instead of actually addressing these issues.

were you not earlier arguing that women are sociopaths

I doubt it. They are encouraged to behave in sociopathic ways towards men because of societal gynocentrism being normalized alongside the dehumanization of men. The existence of women MRAs disproves the biological defect ideas imo.
They are trained to think that things which inconvenience or disadvantage themselves are inherently wrong, their process goes;

"Does it inconvenience or disadvantage me in favor of a male to consider this?" - Yes (WRONG, object) No (Continue down list.)
Ignoring that sometimes social obligations by individuals to other individuals should be inconveniences or disadvantage because of overall societal good. Example; child support, alimony, etc. Both asserted by being solely concerned with womens interests and experiences and discounting mens entirely because they made women worse off to consider, and if it makes women worse off to consider it is wrong (This is the ethical dysfunction feminism espoused historically and does currently in practice). They are raised to entirely ignore men as beings with an internal experience in terms of how they treat them and view them, and to instead becoming antagonistic to men reminding them of this fact, where doing so makes a womans choices or decisions harder for her.

This is the essence of gynocentrism that feminism has fostered in society.

[New Emeline]

were you not earlier arguing that women are sociopaths

I doubt it. They are encouraged to behave in sociopathic ways towards men because of societal gynocentrism being normalized alongside the dehumanization of men. The existence of women MRAs disproves the biological defect ideas imo.

must be remembering wrong i guess

[Costa Fierro]

I think both of you are thinking of this in black and white terms a bit too much.

It's not black and white. It's ignorance against experience.

Fartsniffage could do with a more empathetic approach, and you could be a bit less apologetic of them.

No. I'm not going to sit back and watch a bunch of people sit there and continue to perpetrate the kinds of beliefs that drive men to become incels and then get indignant when incels lash out.

You've made your point about incels being conditioned by genuinely bad social, cultural and economic factors, but now you are erring on the side of excessive sympathy towards a group of people who are not purely victims of wholesome character.

I sympathise with them because I myself was on that path and by and large haven't deviated from it, it's that instead of promoting rape and other illegal activities, I simply avoid women as much as possible altogether.

A lot of incels are malicious and hurtful, and they are entirely responsible for their abusive behavior towards others. We can empathize with their insecurities, their hopelessness, their marginalization, but we can't paper over their rabid, often violent misogyny.

Again, this is wrong.

A bit of the carrot, a bit of the stick.

Except there's no carrot. There's people beating them with the stick and then acting shocked when incels lash out.

At worst, it's a dishonest conflation of the MRM with something worse, but the MRM is not all men. The MRM is not all manhood. Depicting MRAs as similar to incels is crappy, but it's nowhere near an attempt to demonize half of the human species.

It is, because it is demonising men who are asking questions about society and it's views of men, because they're going against established narrative.

[Liriena]

A person who kills 10 people and injures 16 more and then begs the police to shoot them is a lunatic.

If he'd asked for help before doing that then I'd have a huge amount of sympathy for him, he didn't.

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

This is the sort of circular defeatism that incels use to justify their own seclusive radicalization. It's what their ideologues use to convince recruits that they should vehemently reject any attempts to get them psychiatric or psychological help.

You and Costa really are pushing the limits of what could be construed as empathy, and bordering what could be construed as apologia.

Both skew towards benefiting women.

Extraordinary claim. I'd be more willing to accept the claim that they skew towards holding awareness of perspectives genuinely critical of the traditional status quo at bay than I'd be to the claim that it's even unconsciously for the benefit of women and the detriment of men.

[Costa Fierro]

You mean kinda like why I didn't ask for help before downing a 500ml bottle of liquid morphine?

Stop making assumptions.

That's a bit rich coming from someone who assumes that everyone that does something like this is a lunatic.

[Ostroeuropa]

> Thinking Men asking for help results in anything positive when your problems relate to social vilification and isolation.

This is the sort of circular defeatism that incels use to justify their own seclusive radicalization. It's what their ideologues use to convince recruits that they should vehemently reject any attempts to get them psychiatric or psychological help.

You and Costa really are pushing the limits of what could be construed as empathy, and bordering what could be construed as apologia.

Both skew towards benefiting women.

Extraordinary claim. I'd be more willing to accept the claim that they skew towards holding awareness of perspectives genuinely critical of the traditional status quo at bay than I'd be to the claim that it's even unconsciously for the benefit of women and the detriment of men.

You don't think portraying the womens movement as having unquestionable moral capital and the mens movement as inherently evil benefits women to the detriment of men? That's ridiculous.


It's not circular defeatism to acknowledge the status quo is inadequate and instead of telling them to seek help, we should be telling them to organize and demand it.

[New Emeline]

I doubt it. They are encouraged to behave in sociopathic ways towards men because of societal gynocentrism being normalized alongside the dehumanization of men. The existence of women MRAs disproves the biological defect ideas imo.

must be remembering wrong i guess

Actually, uh,

They're raised in a society that dehumanizes men and discourages empathy with them, their perspectives, etc, and in the context of the demonization of men etc.

"Most people in a nation that hates Jews are sociopathic in their treatment of jews" is not controversial.

Look at the level of sociopathy necessary for women rape victims to go in front of cameras and not show solidarity with rape victims, but to instead waffle about womens experience.

That's how tapped people get due to feminist dysfunctionality.

There's women rape victims alive today who were raped because feminists insisted on blaming masculinity (By ignoring male victims to come to that conclusion) rather than actually fix the problem, who go in front of cameras and STILL frame it as a male perpetrated womens issue.

Despite themselves suffering the experience.
Despite men suffering it too.

That level of disconnect?

I call it sociopathy.
Find a term you prefer.

[Fartsniffage]

You mean kinda like why I didn't ask for help before downing a 500ml bottle of liquid morphine?

Stop making assumptions.

That's a bit rich coming from someone who assumes that everyone that does something like this is a lunatic.

Yes, I assume mass murderers are lunatics. All of them.

Feel free to continue apologising for the mass murderer.

[Ostroeuropa]

must be remembering wrong i guess

Actually, uh,

They're raised in a society that dehumanizes men and discourages empathy with them, their perspectives, etc, and in the context of the demonization of men etc.

"Most people in a nation that hates Jews are sociopathic in their treatment of jews" is not controversial.

Look at the level of sociopathy necessary for women rape victims to go in front of cameras and not show solidarity with rape victims, but to instead waffle about womens experience.

That's how tapped people get due to feminist dysfunctionality.

There's women rape victims alive today who were raped because feminists insisted on blaming masculinity (By ignoring male victims to come to that conclusion) rather than actually fix the problem, who go in front of cameras and STILL frame it as a male perpetrated womens issue.

Despite themselves suffering the experience.
Despite men suffering it too.

That level of disconnect?

I call it sociopathy.
Find a term you prefer.

It seems apt in that comparison to note that the level of societal dysfunction caused by gynocentrism is sufficient to cause women rape victims not to empathize with other rape victims, except those society encourages them to do so with.

There are women who avoid it, but they are nonetheless raised in that environment.

[Costa Fierro]

This is the sort of circular defeatism that incels use to justify their own seclusive radicalization. It's what their ideologues use to convince recruits that they should vehemently reject any attempts to get them psychiatric or psychological help.

This likely stems from previous experiences where people have insincerely engaged with them in order to further their own goals or simply out of amusement. People aren't going to be as trusting of the intentions of others if the latter has not approached them in the past with sincerity.

You and Costa really are pushing the limits of what could be construed as empathy, and bordering what could be construed as apologia.

With me at least it's not so much empathy, it's shared experiences of being the ugly/loner kid that people picked on for fun.

[New Emeline]

Actually, uh,

It seems apt in that comparison to note that the level of societal dysfunction caused by gynocentrism is sufficient to cause women rape victims not to empathize with other rape victims, except those society encourages them to do so with.

There are women who avoid it, but they are nonetheless raised in that environment.

That part is clearly not what I'm taking issue with.

[Ostroeuropa]

It seems apt in that comparison to note that the level of societal dysfunction caused by gynocentrism is sufficient to cause women rape victims not to empathize with other rape victims, except those society encourages them to do so with.

There are women who avoid it, but they are nonetheless raised in that environment.

That part is clearly not what I'm taking issue with.

The term sociopathy is what you take issue with? I don't see why. There appears to be a clear lack of empathy, that is sociopathic.

[New Emeline]

That part is clearly not what I'm taking issue with.

The term sociopathy is what you take issue with? I don't see why. There appears to be a clear lack of empathy, that is sociopathic.

You can't just diagnose entire swathes of society as sociopathic.
It's an actual mental condition, not just a word for "people I don't like". It's like saying "well Scientology is completely absurd, so Scientologists must have schizophrenia".

[Ostroeuropa]

The term sociopathy is what you take issue with? I don't see why. There appears to be a clear lack of empathy, that is sociopathic.

You can't just diagnose entire swathes of society as sociopathic.
It's an actual mental condition, not just a word for "people I don't like". It's like saying "well Scientology is completely absurd, so Scientologists must have schizophrenia".

How about the clips of women audiences laughing about male castration? That kind of behavior is literally one of the symptoms of sociopathy.
Society-wide sociopathy against males is basically a description of the status quo.

Acknowledging it is necessary to change it. You can find another term if you like, this one seems fine to me.