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Britain to cut off life support of infant Alfie Evans soon

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Skylus
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Postby Skylus » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:16 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Some of the autonomous bits remain, for now?

Better. I think it was just the whole "brain melting" thing that made me retch a little.

Technically the kid's brain did melt.
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:17 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
And from what I understand, this is impossible to recover from with any kind of modern medicine?

As I have said previously, you can't reconstruct a brain that has been almost totally destroyed. If we could, then people who have been shot in the head or suffered strokes etc would have a near 100% survival rate.


That's what I figured.

In which case the hospital, and pretty much everyone involved should just pronounce the kid dead (they already pronounced him brain-dead) and stop with the "best interests" nonsense.

And if the parents want the dead body of their child flown to Italy, why not? He's dead.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:18 am

Salus Maior wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:As I have said previously, you can't reconstruct a brain that has been almost totally destroyed. If we could, then people who have been shot in the head or suffered strokes etc would have a near 100% survival rate.


That's what I figured.

In which case the hospital, and pretty much everyone involved should just pronounce the kid dead (they already pronounced him brain-dead) and stop with the "best interests" nonsense.

And if the parents want the dead body of their child flown to Italy, why not? He's dead.

Well apparently as of Monday the 23rd he already has Italian citizenship
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:22 am

Salus Maior wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:As I have said previously, you can't reconstruct a brain that has been almost totally destroyed. If we could, then people who have been shot in the head or suffered strokes etc would have a near 100% survival rate.


That's what I figured.

In which case the hospital, and pretty much everyone involved should just pronounce the kid dead (they already pronounced him brain-dead) and stop with the "best interests" nonsense.

It's not nonsense, because he's not dead.

And if the parents want the dead body of their child flown to Italy, why not? He's dead.

All deaths need to be certified by a coroner. It isn't known what exactly has caused Alfie's condition, so there would need to be an autopsy.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:27 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:Rome isn't offering "treatment", they're offering palliative care. What he's already getting.

Rome is offering full palliative care, including a tracheostomy and gastrostomy. The NHS is intentionally refusing to provide full palliative care.

Imperializt Russia wrote:It is therefore determined it is not in his "best interests" to be kept on life support for an arbitrary length of time, as he will not recover.

It is not in the best interests of the child to die from preventable starvation or asphyxiation rather than the underlying neurological condition. This is tantamount to euthanasia.

The New California Republic wrote:Again, how can you "cure" a destroyed brain? It isn't even remotely theoretically possible.

Alfie's brain is damaged, not destroyed, as demonstrated by the fact that he is alive. I don't understand how you can claim that it is literally impossible to cure certain kinds of brain damage. You have no evidence for that claim beyond "we don't know how to do it".

Again, I'm not saying Alfie can be cured given the state of modern medical science. I'm saying the fact that we don't currently know how to cure him doesn't mean he lacks the inherent capacity for sapience or that he's somehow "less human".
Last edited by Auralia on Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:30 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:30 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
That's what I figured.

In which case the hospital, and pretty much everyone involved should just pronounce the kid dead (they already pronounced him brain-dead) and stop with the "best interests" nonsense.

It's not nonsense, because he's not dead.

And if the parents want the dead body of their child flown to Italy, why not? He's dead.

All deaths need to be certified by a coroner. It isn't known what exactly has caused Alfie's condition, so there would need to be an autopsy.


Ok, how about this: How can a person whose brain is mostly destroyed beyond a bit that allows him to have some bodily functions have interests?
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:33 am

Auralia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:Rome isn't offering "treatment", they're offering palliative care. What he's already getting.

Rome is offering full palliative care, including a tracheostomy and gastrostomy. The NHS is intentionally refusing to provide full palliative care.

Palliative care isn't keeping someone alive as long as possible. Palliative care is keeping someone comfortable as they die.

Imperializt Russia wrote:It is therefore determined it is not in his "best interests" to be kept on life support for an arbitrary length of time, as he will not recover.

It is not in the best interests of the child to die from preventable starvation or asphyxiation rather than the underlying neurological condition. This is tantamount to euthanasia.

No it isn't.

The New California Republic wrote:Again, how can you "cure" a destroyed brain? It isn't even remotely theoretically possible.

Alfie's brain is damaged, not destroyed, as demonstrated by the fact that he is alive. I don't understand how you can claim that it is literally impossible to cure brain damage. You have no evidence for that claim beyond "we don't know how to do it".

Whether it can be done is irrelevant, given that we don't know how to do it.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:35 am

Purpelia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Alfie can't be saved, but does still feel pain.

Those two are mutually exclusive.

Either the child is brain dead and thus dead and cant feel pain or it is not brain dead and thus can be saved by definition. To allow wiggle room between the two and than have the state as the arbiter of said wiggle room is basically allowing the state to pick and chose who gets to die. Not a good idea, you must agree.

No, they really aren't. Certain areas of your brain can be damaged beyond repair and which areas govern pain reception is pretty well-documented, so no.

So no, those two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. And no, it's not arbitrary. Pain reception isn't arbitrarily assigned during neurological development.

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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:35 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:It's not nonsense, because he's not dead.


All deaths need to be certified by a coroner. It isn't known what exactly has caused Alfie's condition, so there would need to be an autopsy.


Ok, how about this: How can a person whose brain is mostly destroyed beyond a bit that allows him to have some bodily functions have interests?

Why would a person need a fully intact brain for suffering to be bad and comfort and dignity to be good?
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Postby Esternial » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:36 am

Ifreann wrote:Whether it can be done is irrelevant, given that we don't know how to do it.

We can't cure death yet so might as well put every deceased person on ice until we do.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:37 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Ok, how about this: How can a person whose brain is mostly destroyed beyond a bit that allows him to have some bodily functions have interests?

Why would a person need a fully intact brain for suffering to be bad and comfort and dignity to be good?


Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?
Last edited by Salus Maior on Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:38 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Why would a person need a fully intact brain for suffering to be bad and comfort and dignity to be good?


Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?

That depends on the extent of the damage and which areas are damaged.

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Kvatchdom
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Postby Kvatchdom » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:38 am

No reason to keep the kid alive in the first place.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:39 am

Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Again, how can you "cure" a destroyed brain? It isn't even remotely theoretically possible.

Alfie's brain is damaged, not destroyed, as demonstrated by the fact that he is alive. I don't understand how you can claim that it is literally impossible to cure certain kinds of brain damage. You have no evidence for that claim beyond "we don't know how to do it".

I cannot believe that you are still suggesting that it could be possible to reconstruct his brain. First, it would require a detailed scan of what his brain was like originally, and then to somehow fabricate brain neurons, and then position and connect them in exactly the same configuration as before. Absurd. That kind of tech is not going to happen for a very long time. That shit is Star Trek tech on steroids.

Auralia wrote:the fact that we don't currently know how to cure him doesn't mean he lacks the inherent capacity for sapience or that he's somehow "less human".

Yes, it does.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:41 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Why would a person need a fully intact brain for suffering to be bad and comfort and dignity to be good?


Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?

Apparently the only response he shows is when he is having painful seizures. So suffering might be all he can experience.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:42 am

Esternial wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?

That depends on the extent of the damage and which areas are damaged.

As of February 2018 his brain is nearly entirely gone, with the exception of the brain stem and things like autonomous breathing and blood circulation.
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:43 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?

Apparently the only response he shows is when he is having painful seizures. So suffering might be all he can experience.

I cannot imagine a more terrible existence.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:43 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?

Apparently the only response he shows is when he is having painful seizures. So suffering might be all he can experience.

That’s mainly because the brain stem is still intact. Once that goes he won’t feel anything
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Postby Esternial » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:43 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?

Apparently the only response he shows is when he is having painful seizures. So suffering might be all he can experience.

Well seizures are just aberrant brain activity and don't always cause pain, even if you've got an intact brain.

But if his brain is whittled away yet can still register pain, I can only imagine that he must be in constant agony - not solely during seizures.
Last edited by Esternial on Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Firaxin » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:44 am

Ifreann wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Can he experience suffering at this point? Or anything, for that matter?

Apparently the only response he shows is when he is having painful seizures. So suffering might be all he can experience.

Just seizures, if all that is left is the brain stem, he doesn't receive the messages from pain receptors.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:45 am

Firaxin wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Apparently the only response he shows is when he is having painful seizures. So suffering might be all he can experience.

Just seizures, if all that is left is the brain stem, he doesn't receive the messages from pain receptors.

We hope.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:45 am

Esternial wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Apparently the only response he shows is when he is having painful seizures. So suffering might be all he can experience.

Well seizures are just aberrant brain activity and don't always cause pain, even if you've got an intact brain.

All he really has left is the base of the brain and the brain stem. The rest is water like fluid, and his brain stem doesn’t have much longer based on reports
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Esternial
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Postby Esternial » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:48 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Esternial wrote:Well seizures are just aberrant brain activity and don't always cause pain, even if you've got an intact brain.

All he really has left is the base of the brain and the brain stem. The rest is water like fluid, and his brain stem doesn’t have much longer based on reports

Jesus...

They might as well be keeping a body without a head alive. That's really depressing.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:52 am

Esternial wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:All he really has left is the base of the brain and the brain stem. The rest is water like fluid, and his brain stem doesn’t have much longer based on reports

Jesus...

They might as well be keeping a body without a head alive.

That is exactly what we have been saying. It could be argued that his current state is between being human and a corpse, as neither definition fully applies, but parts of each definition do...
Last edited by The New California Republic on Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:54 am

Esternial wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:All he really has left is the base of the brain and the brain stem. The rest is water like fluid, and his brain stem doesn’t have much longer based on reports

Jesus...

They might as well be keeping a body without a head alive. That's really depressing.

From the wiki: a fourth scan taken in February 2018 shown "almost total destruction of Alfie's brain, with fluid identical to water or CSF now present where brain matter should be” and "by the end of February the connective pathways within the white matter of the brain which facilitate rudimentary sensation – hearing, touch, taste and sight, had been obliterated. They were no longer even identifiable on the MRI scan".

The kid is dead. He should be taken off life support
Male, Titoist cultural nationalist, lives somewhere in the Deep South, give me any good Irish, Canadian, or Scottish whiskey and I will be your friend for life. I'm GAY! US Military Veteran
I'm agent #69 in the Gaystapo!
>The Sons of Adam: I'd crown myself monarch... cuz why not?
>>Dumb Ideologies: Why not turn yourself into a penguin and build an igloo at the centre of the Earth?
>Xovland: I keep getting ads for printer ink. Sometimes, when you get that feeling down there, you have to look at some steamy printer pictures.
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