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Britain to cut off life support of infant Alfie Evans soon

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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:22 am

Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not at all. Most, if not all, of those cases have the potential for future sapience and sentience. That is the crucial difference. In the case of Alfie Evans, that potential is completely lacking.

How do you know that this potential in Alfie is "completely lacking"? Because there is no known cure for Alfie's condition? How is it that a person's status as a human being is a function of the state of medical science at any given time?

His brain doesn't exist anymore. It's been destroyed by his illness.

Describe to me how you recover from that.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:24 am

Purpelia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Do you know how to rebuild brains that have been destroyed? No? Neither do I. And neither does anyone else for that matter.

Why do you need to? If his brain is destroyed to the point where he is brain dead than no procedure in the world will help him and it's just a case of the parents wasting their money. So let them waste it

Well we need to somehow reconstruct a destroyed human brain, for Auralia's point to be correct(!)

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Auralia wrote:How do you know that this potential in Alfie is "completely lacking"? Because there is no known cure for Alfie's condition? How is it that a person's status as a human being is a function of the state of medical science at any given time?

His brain doesn't exist anymore. It's been destroyed by his illness.

Describe to me how you recover from that.

Like I said, by reconstructing his brain. Should be simple enough. Not.
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Postby Auralia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:28 am

The New California Republic wrote:Do you know how to rebuild brains that have been destroyed? No? Neither do I. And neither does anyone else for that matter.

So what? The fact remains that Alfie is a living human being, so it is theoretically possible that he could be cured. My point is that he is not "less human" simply because we don't know how to cure him.

Imperializt Russia wrote:The wishes of the parents cannot be superseded by the medical team, except when the wishes are believed to conflict with the actual patient's 'best interest'.

In general, the parents should be given deference in terms of what constitutes the child's "best interest". The state should only involve itself in cases of abuse, but seeking treatment from a Vatican hospital rather than the NHS is obviously not "abuse".

Imperializt Russia wrote:If your child was dying of a preventable illness, even in the US, and you said "nah, we're waiting for God to save him", you would be charged for that on the same fucking basis.

This is clearly not the case here. The parents are seeking treatment, and the NHS is refusing to provide it.
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Postby Alvecia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:30 am

Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Do you know how to rebuild brains that have been destroyed? No? Neither do I. And neither does anyone else for that matter.

So what? The fact remains that Alfie is a living human being, so it is theoretically possible that he could be cured. My point is that he is not "less human" simply because we don't know how to cure him.

Simply being human and currently alive does not make a cure possible.
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:31 am

Auralia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:If your child was dying of a preventable illness, even in the US, and you said "nah, we're waiting for God to save him", you would be charged for that on the same fucking basis.

This is clearly not the case here. The parents are seeking treatment, and the NHS is refusing to provide it.


Literally nobody on the planet can provide the treatment necessarily to ensure this child lives. Nobody is even sure what the cause is, which is kind of important for medicine.

He either dies in the UK or Italy, the parents are just in denial.
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Imperializt Russia
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:32 am

Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Do you know how to rebuild brains that have been destroyed? No? Neither do I. And neither does anyone else for that matter.

So what? The fact remains that Alfie is a living human being, so it is theoretically possible that he could be cured. My point is that he is not "less human" simply because we don't know how to cure him.

Imperializt Russia wrote:The wishes of the parents cannot be superseded by the medical team, except when the wishes are believed to conflict with the actual patient's 'best interest'.

In general, the parents should be given deference in terms of what constitutes the child's "best interest". The state should only involve itself in cases of abuse, but seeking treatment from a Vatican hospital rather than the NHS is obviously not "abuse".

Imperializt Russia wrote:If your child was dying of a preventable illness, even in the US, and you said "nah, we're waiting for God to save him", you would be charged for that on the same fucking basis.

This is clearly not the case here. The parents are seeking treatment, and the NHS is refusing to provide it.

Continuing ineffective treatment that would prolong suffering is treated exactly the same in UK law as refusing effective treatment that could alleviate suffering.

Rome isn't offering "treatment", they're offering palliative care. What he's already getting.
This response covers both of your points.

Can he get better? What is his quality of life?
The answers are respectively "no" and "nil".
It is therefore determined it is not in his "best interests" to be kept on life support for an arbitrary length of time, as he will not recover.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:33 am

Purpelia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Alfie can't be saved, but does still feel pain.

Those two are mutually exclusive.

No they aren't. Do I really need to explain to you that medical science cannot actually heal any and all conditions other than brain death?


Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Do you know how to rebuild brains that have been destroyed? No? Neither do I. And neither does anyone else for that matter.

So what? The fact remains that Alfie is a living human being, so it is theoretically possible that he could be cured. My point is that he is not "less human" simply because we don't know how to cure him.

He's not less human because we don't know how to cure him. And being that he is human, it is cruel to keep him alive and in pain when we cannot do anything to cure him.
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:33 am

Valrifell wrote:
Auralia wrote:
This is clearly not the case here. The parents are seeking treatment, and the NHS is refusing to provide it.


Literally nobody on the planet can provide the treatment necessarily to ensure this child lives. Nobody is even sure what the cause is, which is kind of important for medicine.

He either dies in the UK or Italy, the parents are just in denial.

I'm wondering what happens if some level of court acquiesces, they find an air carrier willing to transit Alfie, and owing to his precarious state he dies in transit, which is apparently quite likely.
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:34 am

Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Do you know how to rebuild brains that have been destroyed? No? Neither do I. And neither does anyone else for that matter.

So what? The fact remains that Alfie is a living human being, so it is theoretically possible that he could be cured.

His. Brain. Has. Been. Destroyed.

Again, how can you "cure" a destroyed brain? It isn't even remotely theoretically possible. It's about as theoretically possible as me spontaneously growing wings.
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Postby Skylus » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:35 am

Wait, people stormed a children's hospital over this?
:blink:
Whut.
Why?
How is that going to solve anything?
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:36 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Auralia wrote:So what? The fact remains that Alfie is a living human being, so it is theoretically possible that he could be cured.

His. Brain. Has. Been. Destroyed.

Again, how can you "cure" a destroyed brain? It isn't even remotely theoretically possible. It's about as theoretically possible as me spontaneously growing wings.

The NHS, according to Alfie's Army and some certain Americans:
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Postby Imperializt Russia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:37 am

Skylus wrote:Wait, people stormed a children's hospital over this?
:blink:
Whut.
Why?
How is that going to solve anything?

They tried. A group of 30-50 charged the door, the police formed a protective line, there was a standoff and scrum for maybe two minutes, then they retreated.
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:37 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
Literally nobody on the planet can provide the treatment necessarily to ensure this child lives. Nobody is even sure what the cause is, which is kind of important for medicine.

He either dies in the UK or Italy, the parents are just in denial.

I'm wondering what happens if some level of court acquiesces, they find an air carrier willing to transit Alfie, and owing to his precarious state he dies in transit, which is apparently quite likely.


The people who worked on the transit would probably be doxxed.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:37 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Auralia wrote:His brain has obviously not been "removed", given that he is still alive.

The fact is that Alfie is still a member of the human species, despite his neurological condition -- he's just as human as you or I, and possesses the same fundamental human rights as you or I.

His brain shows very extensive damage, to the point that neuronal activity is non-existent in most of his brain. Brain removal was the closest equivalent that I could use.

He is not "just as human" as you or I, let's not kid ourselves. If sentience and sapience are totally absent, that means he fails to satisfy part of the definition of being human.

Ya if I ever get to that state just pull the plug and let me die. Hell its already in my will that whoever fights to keep my brain dead body alive will not be getting anything from me, there’s also the same thing about nursing homes. Fuck that.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:38 am

Skylus wrote:Wait, people stormed a children's hospital over this?
:blink:
Whut.
Why?
How is that going to solve anything?

Presumably the "plan" was to take him away from the doctors and...well, I doubt they were thinking any further ahead than that.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:39 am

The Enclave Government wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:His brain shows very extensive damage, to the point that neuronal activity is non-existent in most of his brain. Brain removal was the closest equivalent that I could use.

He is not "just as human" as you or I, let's not kid ourselves. If sentience and sapience are totally absent, that means he fails to satisfy part of the definition of being human.

I personally mentally frame it as a poor kid whose just been in a car accident and is only living with the medics performing CPR, pumping air into his lungs, the shebang. Kid probably won't make it in an ambulance ride to the hospital. Do you put him in the ambulance and preserve a brain damaged husk of a human or let them go?

It's an ethical question solved by practical concerns, in my eyes.

I keep up compressions until the hospital takes over. It’s my job and that what I was trained to do. I’m not going to make decisions that could cost me my job
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:40 am

Ifreann wrote:
Skylus wrote:Wait, people stormed a children's hospital over this?
:blink:
Whut.
Why?
How is that going to solve anything?

Presumably the "plan" was to take him away from the doctors and...well, I doubt they were thinking any further ahead than that.

Fixed that for you.
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:42 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Hatterleigh wrote:If you guys didn't know, for the past months in britain there has been a case about a sick young child named Alfie Evans. Britain has ruled against the parents seeking medical practice from the US and Italy, and plans to let the child die without the parents consent. Some people for the cutting off of Alfie's life support claim that it's futile and inhumane, but in my personal opinion that doesn't justify barring these people from seeking further medical treatment, and that government has no right to decide if a baby lives or dies.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4312535/a ... -hospital/

So what do you guys think about this situation? Feel free to put your opinions on this thread

The medical team treating him has decided whether or not the child lives or dies. The government agrees and has ruled that it would be cruel for any other action to be taken.

Alfie has received an offer of care in Rome (and Italian citizenship, for some reason), but this is just more palliative care - what he's already receiving at Alder Hey, just leaving his life support on.
He can't actually be treated because no-one even knows what the disease is, except that it's a degenerative brain disease.
He also can't actually be treated because he has a degenerative brain disease, which has degenerated his brain.

If any part of his brain isn't spinal fluid and mush, it's the brainstem, and while your body can perform breathing and circulation with it, you literally cannot live with just a brainstem.
In his condition, it is likely he wouldn't even survive the flight to Rome, where the child's father is hoping to receive divine healing from the Pope him fucking self.



In the name of this child, an increasingly irrational crowd of people continues to harass and assault medical staff, non-medical staff at the hospital (I have one such friend), parents of other patients (who are also all sick fucking children) and indeed terrorising those other patients by proxy. Some parents have reported their children asking tearfully if the hospital is "going to kill them".
On Monday, an element of a crowd of 200 demonstrators tried to literally storm the hospital. A fucking children's hospital. Luckily it was a fairly pathetic effort that retreated as soon as the police formed a line at the door, but they fucking tried in the first place.

Very serious threats have been made to medical personnel personally, including phone, email and home harassment, as well as "supporters" trying to gain access to either the ICU (jesus fucking christ) or setting off the fucking fire alarms to force an evacuation.



This is the audience that Alfie's father has knowingly cultivated because he believes in the power of God over a medical assessment.

If the pope is going to work some magic why can’t he just be flown to England?
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:43 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Presumably the "plan" was to take him away from the doctors and...well, I doubt they were thinking any further ahead than that.

Fixed that for you.

You're not wrong. Angry mobs don't have ideas and goals so much as they have momentum.
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:43 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Imperializt Russia wrote:The medical team treating him has decided whether or not the child lives or dies. The government agrees and has ruled that it would be cruel for any other action to be taken.

Alfie has received an offer of care in Rome (and Italian citizenship, for some reason), but this is just more palliative care - what he's already receiving at Alder Hey, just leaving his life support on.
He can't actually be treated because no-one even knows what the disease is, except that it's a degenerative brain disease.
He also can't actually be treated because he has a degenerative brain disease, which has degenerated his brain.

If any part of his brain isn't spinal fluid and mush, it's the brainstem, and while your body can perform breathing and circulation with it, you literally cannot live with just a brainstem.
In his condition, it is likely he wouldn't even survive the flight to Rome, where the child's father is hoping to receive divine healing from the Pope him fucking self.



In the name of this child, an increasingly irrational crowd of people continues to harass and assault medical staff, non-medical staff at the hospital (I have one such friend), parents of other patients (who are also all sick fucking children) and indeed terrorising those other patients by proxy. Some parents have reported their children asking tearfully if the hospital is "going to kill them".
On Monday, an element of a crowd of 200 demonstrators tried to literally storm the hospital. A fucking children's hospital. Luckily it was a fairly pathetic effort that retreated as soon as the police formed a line at the door, but they fucking tried in the first place.

Very serious threats have been made to medical personnel personally, including phone, email and home harassment, as well as "supporters" trying to gain access to either the ICU (jesus fucking christ) or setting off the fucking fire alarms to force an evacuation.



This is the audience that Alfie's father has knowingly cultivated because he believes in the power of God over a medical assessment.

If the pope is going to work some magic why can’t he just be flown to England?


Papists aren't allowed in English soil, let alone the Pope.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:46 am

Valrifell wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:If the pope is going to work some magic why can’t he just be flown to England?


Papists aren't allowed in English soil, let alone the Pope.

What about Sealand?
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:46 am

Thermodolia wrote:If the pope is going to work some magic why can’t he just be flown to England?

Well, Alfie's father visited the Pope. I assume the Pope could have given the magic brain-rebuilding potion to the father, and the father could administer it to Alfie later. But I guess the Pope forgot.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:53 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:If the pope is going to work some magic why can’t he just be flown to England?

Well, Alfie's father visited the Pope. I assume the Pope could have given the magic brain-rebuilding potion to the father, and the father could administer it to Alfie later. But I guess the Pope forgot.

Or it’s an incantation and not a potion. I blame the airlines! Curse them and their expensive international flights!!


All jokes aside the kid should be taken off life support. Like I said before I have it in my will, and yes I seriously have a will; it was kinda strange being 19 and writing a will, that anyone who attempts to keep my brain dead body on life support will automatically forfeit anything I have given them in my will.
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Postby Xmara » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:56 am

I understand that this would be a difficult decision, but I think the most humane decision would be to remove life support.
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Divitalia
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Ex-Nation

Postby Divitalia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:58 am

Xmara wrote:I understand that this would be a difficult decision, but I think the most humane decision would be to remove life support.


Because?

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