Britain to cut off life support of infant Alfie Evans soon

[Alvecia]

Goddamit, what’s with all this “just get pregnant again and move on” shit? That’s not humanity fucking works, at least for most of us. You can’t just replace a person.
Nor do we have runts and litters. That’s not our our child bearing and raising works.

Why not? It would cost roughly around the same amount of money to have a 2nd child, provided the 1st child is no longer an expense. A new child won't be a perfect copy of the one that died but- so what? If you give a 2nd or even 3rd try a chance, they might just well be a "new and improved" version where growing up, they'll have few to no medical problems ever.

A person who is sickly all the time, with no logical explanation as to why- such as they're too old, they don't exercise or eat healthy enough, someone who have bizarre allergies that most people don't have: such as peanuts being toxic to them- that right there, is someone who people would probably think of as a runt or inferior in development.

I will pay you to never procreate

[Auralia]

Are you arguing that Alfie is somehow less than human now because of his condition?

If my brain was removed, I'd say that would make me less human, yes.

His brain has obviously not been "removed", given that he is still alive.

The fact is that Alfie is still a member of the human species, despite his neurological condition -- he's just as human as you or I, and possesses the same fundamental human rights as you or I.

[Valrifell]

There is a moral distinction between allowing someone to die of an incurable disease and effectively killing them by depriving them of the essentials of life.

This, as well.

Don't misinterpret my position, I think if the parents want to go to Italy they should be allowed. But it should also be recognized that this entire effort will only result in his parent's losing a lot of money in the process.

[Kramanica]

Why not? It would cost roughly around the same amount of money to have a 2nd child, provided the 1st child is no longer an expense. A new child won't be a perfect copy of the one that died but- so what? If you give a 2nd or even 3rd try a chance, they might just well be a "new and improved" version where growing up, they'll have few to no medical problems ever.

A person who is sickly all the time, with no logical explanation as to why- such as they're too old, they don't exercise or eat healthy enough, someone who have bizarre allergies that most people don't have: such as peanuts being toxic to them- that right there, is someone who people would probably think of as a runt or inferior in development.

I will pay you to never procreate

I second this. We can pool our money together.

[Sovaal]

Why not? It would cost roughly around the same amount of money to have a 2nd child, provided the 1st child is no longer an expense. A new child won't be a perfect copy of the one that died but- so what? If you give a 2nd or even 3rd try a chance, they might just well be a "new and improved" version where growing up, they'll have few to no medical problems ever.

A person who is sickly all the time, with no logical explanation as to why- such as they're too old, they don't exercise or eat healthy enough, someone who have bizarre allergies that most people don't have: such as peanuts being toxic to them- that right there, is someone who people would probably think of as a runt or inferior in development.

I will pay you to never procreate

I feel that you won’t need to.

[Kramanica]

This, as well.

Don't misinterpret my position, I think if the parents want to go to Italy they should be allowed. But it should also be recognized that this entire effort will only result in his parent's losing a lot of money in the process.

Then that's their choice.

Its easy for us to judge them and their decisions. But being placed in the position of having a court literally tell you your child must die will push any parent to the edge.

[Saiwania]

Because that’s not how we fucking work. We’re not practical beings, we are ruled though primal emotions, we’re not machines, and personally I think we’re the better for that. What your talking about is not just cold, but antithetical to the human condition, to millions of years of human evolution. We don’t have runts, you can’t replace people, hell you can’t even replace pets, that’s just not how this shit works. Most of us care for our family, even the old, sick, and weak.

I really have to roll my eyes at all of this. Yes, I agree that you don't abandon someone as soon as they get sick or hurt, if they otherwise have good odds of surviving. But, if they're too far gone- it likely is for the best to be able to let go or at least make preparations to dismiss them from your mind and move on with your life.

[Ifreann]

Keeping him alive at this point is just cruel. He's functionally dead, and he won't be getting better.

It's never cruel to provide someone with the essentials of life. It is always cruel to deny them food, water, or oxygen, forcing them to die of starvation or asphyxiation rather than simply letting them die of their underlying condition. That's the difference between palliative care and euthanasia.

In any event, the parents' views take priority, and they clearly want the child to be provided with palliative care by the Vatican hospital.

The wishes of the parents quite clearly do not take priority.

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He is in pain.

The state shouldn't abandon children because their parents are making a stink.

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The doctors don't know what "this disease" is.

1. I don't think that can be proven, and if he's not conscious and lacks gray matter he's already effectively dead and not feeling a thing.

Alfie is apparently only responsive to the painful seizures he is suffering.

2. The State's plan is to abandon them either way, I don't see the point in forcing them to stay in the country, shift the burden to people who've agreed to take it on since that's what the parent's want.

The state shouldn't allow children to suffer needlessly, regardless of what the parents want.

Everyone here should just realize that it seems like that effort will ultimately futile. If it's not, good for them.

Futile suffering is bad.

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The state shouldn't abandon children because their parents are making a stink.

I'm struggling to see how the state isn't abandoning Alfie by actively preventing him from receiving appropriate care at the Vatican hospital.

He's receiving appropriate care from the NHS now. Removing him from that care to put him on a plane to take him to the Pope won't achieve anything.

[The Enclave Government]

It is times like these I am jealous of countries with socialized medicine.

Not sure if mentioned before, but the Italian doctors who want to airlift him have freely admitted that the flight would more likely than not cause seizures due to stimulation.

One of modern medicine's sickest perversions is that of death. Everyone involved only wants what's best for the boy - and from the view of everyone who is rationally based, it seems, that consensus is such that the best solution is a peaceful death.

[Alvecia]

Don't misinterpret my position, I think if the parents want to go to Italy they should be allowed. But it should also be recognized that this entire effort will only result in his parent's losing a lot of money in the process.

Then that's their choice.

Its easy for us to judge them and their decisions. But being placed in the position of having a court literally tell you your child must die will push any parent to the edge.

The doctors told them their kid will die. The parents asked if they could make him die a little bit slower. The courts said that was cruel.

[The Enclave Government]

Alfie is apparently only responsive to the painful seizures he is suffering.

This. Maximum this.

[Sovaal]

Because that’s not how we fucking work. We’re not practical beings, we are ruled though primal emotions, we’re not machines, and personally I think we’re the better for that. What your talking about is not just cold, but antithetical to the human condition, to millions of years of human evolution. We don’t have runts, you can’t replace people, hell you can’t even replace pets, that’s just not how this shit works. Most of us care for our family, even the old, sick, and weak.

I really have to roll my eyes at all of this. Yes, I agree that you don't abandon someone as soon as they get sick or hurt, if they otherwise have good odds of surviving. But, if they're too far gone- it likely is for the best to be able to let go or at least make preparations to dismiss them from your mind and move on with your life.

I really don’t give a shit how much you roll your eyes. What you’re saying just isn’t how our species does this shit.

[The Enclave Government]

I really have to roll my eyes at all of this. Yes, I agree that you don't abandon someone as soon as they get sick or hurt, if they otherwise have good odds of surviving. But, if they're too far gone- it likely is for the best to be able to let go or at least make preparations to dismiss them from your mind and move on with your life.

I really don’t give a shit how much you roll your eyes. What you’re saying just isn’t how our species does this shit.

It was common practice up until not that long ago - biologically speaking - to just abandon rather weak children. Sparta made a habit of it. I don't think it's a perversion of humanity to let a dead child die.

[Alvecia]

Because that’s not how we fucking work. We’re not practical beings, we are ruled though primal emotions, we’re not machines, and personally I think we’re the better for that. What your talking about is not just cold, but antithetical to the human condition, to millions of years of human evolution. We don’t have runts, you can’t replace people, hell you can’t even replace pets, that’s just not how this shit works. Most of us care for our family, even the old, sick, and weak.

I really have to roll my eyes at all of this. Yes, I agree that you don't abandon someone as soon as they get sick or hurt, if they otherwise have good odds of surviving. But, if they're too far gone- it likely is for the best to be able to let go or at least make preparations to dismiss them from your mind and move on with your life.

You appear to lack empathy. Have you ever been to see a professional about that? It's a common symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy

[Auralia]

The wishes of the parents quite clearly do not take priority.

Yes, they clearly do under the natural law, even if the UK courts refuse to recognize it.

He's receiving appropriate care from the NHS now. Removing him from that care to put him on a plane to take him to the Pope won't achieve anything.

Unlike the Vatican hospital, the NHS is refusing to provide appropriate palliative care.

[The Enclave Government]

I really have to roll my eyes at all of this. Yes, I agree that you don't abandon someone as soon as they get sick or hurt, if they otherwise have good odds of surviving. But, if they're too far gone- it likely is for the best to be able to let go or at least make preparations to dismiss them from your mind and move on with your life.

You appear to lack empathy. Have you ever been to see a professional about that? It's a common symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy

Rationalization isn't mental illness.... that's rather uncalled for as a barb.

[Alvecia]

The wishes of the parents quite clearly do not take priority.

Yes, they clearly do under the natural law,

What is?

[Kramanica]

Because that’s not how we fucking work. We’re not practical beings, we are ruled though primal emotions, we’re not machines, and personally I think we’re the better for that. What your talking about is not just cold, but antithetical to the human condition, to millions of years of human evolution. We don’t have runts, you can’t replace people, hell you can’t even replace pets, that’s just not how this shit works. Most of us care for our family, even the old, sick, and weak.

I really have to roll my eyes at all of this. Yes, I agree that you don't abandon someone as soon as they get sick or hurt, if they otherwise have good odds of surviving. But, if they're too far gone- it likely is for the best to be able to let go or at least make preparations to dismiss them from your mind and move on with your life.

Right, because it's so easy to remove your dead child from your mind.

It is extremely disconcerting that you seem to have no understanding of how basic human emotions work.

Are you Mark Zuckerberg?

[Alvecia]

You appear to lack empathy. Have you ever been to see a professional about that? It's a common symptom of sociopathy/psychopathy

Rationalization isn't mental illness.... that's rather uncalled for as a barb.

This isn't a suggestion that's come out of left field.

[The Enclave Government]

snip

The problem with 'natural law' is we have about 7 billion opinions of what that means. That's why we have societies and courts to arbitrate disputes on concrete common and legislative law.

[The Enclave Government]

Rationalization isn't mental illness.... that's rather uncalled for as a barb.

This isn't a suggestion that's come out of left field.

Rationalization is a defense mechanism I'd reccomend to the Evans family, at this point.

I think it's somewhat out of the realm of civil discourse to intimate the opposing side's arguments are rooted in fundamental mental illness.

[Alvecia]

This isn't a suggestion that's come out of left field.

Rationalization is a defense mechanism I'd reccomend to the Evans family, at this point.

I think it's somewhat out of the realm of civil discourse to intimate the opposing side's arguments are rooted in fundamental mental illness.

You're giving them far more credit than they deserve

[The Enclave Government]

Rationalization is a defense mechanism I'd reccomend to the Evans family, at this point.

I think it's somewhat out of the realm of civil discourse to intimate the opposing side's arguments are rooted in fundamental mental illness.

You're giving them far more credit than they deserve

I am merely saying that holding a rational opinion about a situation quite directly removed from himself is not a sign of mental illness, and to illustrate his point as coming from one is to miss it.

[The New California Republic]

If my brain was removed, I'd say that would make me less human, yes.

His brain has obviously not been "removed", given that he is still alive.

The fact is that Alfie is still a member of the human species, despite his neurological condition -- he's just as human as you or I, and possesses the same fundamental human rights as you or I.

His brain shows very extensive damage, to the point that neuronal activity is non-existent in most of his brain. Brain removal was the closest equivalent that I could use.

He is not "just as human" as you or I, let's not kid ourselves. If sentience and sapience are totally absent, that means he fails to satisfy part of the definition of being human.

[The Enclave Government]

His brain has obviously not been "removed", given that he is still alive.

The fact is that Alfie is still a member of the human species, despite his neurological condition -- he's just as human as you or I, and possesses the same fundamental human rights as you or I.

His brain shows very extensive damage, to the point that neuronal activity is non-existent in most of his brain. Brain removal was the closest equivalent that I could use.

He is not "just as human" as you or I, let's not kid ourselves. If sentience and sapience are totally absent, that means he fails to satisfy part of the definition of being human.

I personally mentally frame it as a poor kid whose just been in a car accident and is only living with the medics performing CPR, pumping air into his lungs, the shebang. Kid probably won't make it in an ambulance ride to the hospital. Do you put him in the ambulance and preserve a brain damaged husk of a human or let them go?

It's an ethical question solved by practical concerns, in my eyes.