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Britain to cut off life support of infant Alfie Evans soon

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:06 am

Valrifell wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Parents shouldn't be allowed to haul their dying child across a continent just because they're footing the bill themselves.


I don't see why not, the child (as far as I understand) isn't technically in pain, it's not feeling anything at all.

He is in pain.
If they're going to make a huge stink about it, might as well let them bankrupt themselves and finally move on.

The state shouldn't abandon children because their parents are making a stink.


Valrifell wrote:
Kramanica wrote:They cut off his support, the child's still breathing, and they still won't agree to let him live.

What the fuck?


There is no cure for this disease and it seems as though he'd spend the remainder of his life in a vegetative or semi-vegetative state. Ain't much of a life worth living.

The doctors don't know what "this disease" is.


Saiwania wrote:Those parents are too emotionally attached and are so irrational. They don't have financial sense in that they're expending too much money to try to save someone who doesn't have over 50% odds of surviving and thus isn't worth the effort. I'd let my child die in that scenario. If fate wants them to pull through, they'll survive and return to normal. If not, then it was never meant to be.

If the woman ain't too old, just get them pregnant again and move on. In the animal kingdom, it is said that runts are meant to be forgotten or dismissed. Focus on the offspring that is actually normal or healthy.

Never have children.
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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:08 am

Saiwania wrote:Those parents are too emotionally attached and are so irrational. They don't have financial sense in that they're expending too much money to try to save someone who doesn't have over 50% odds of surviving and thus isn't worth the effort. I'd let my child die in that scenario. If fate wants them to pull through, they'll survive and return to normal. If not, then it was never meant to be.

If the woman ain't too old, just get them pregnant again and move on. In the animal kingdom, it is said that runts are meant to be forgotten or dismissed. Focus on the offspring that is actually normal or healthy.

Goddamit, what’s with all this “just get pregnant again and move on” shit? That’s not humanity fucking works, at least for most of us. You can’t just replace a person.
Nor do we have runts and litters. That’s not our our child bearing and raising works.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:10 am

Alvecia wrote:
Auralia wrote:Seriously? Trying to transport your child to a hospital that is willing to provide your child with actual palliative care (food, water, oxygen) is "child abuse"?

Keeping him alive at this point is just cruel. He's functionally dead, and he won't be getting better.

It's never cruel to provide someone with the essentials of life. It is always cruel to deny them food, water, or oxygen, forcing them to die of starvation or asphyxiation rather than simply letting them die of their underlying condition. That's the difference between palliative care and euthanasia.

In any event, the parents' views take priority, and they clearly want the child to be provided with palliative care by the Vatican hospital.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:11 am

Ifreann wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
I don't see why not, the child (as far as I understand) isn't technically in pain, it's not feeling anything at all.

He is in pain.
If they're going to make a huge stink about it, might as well let them bankrupt themselves and finally move on.

The state shouldn't abandon children because their parents are making a stink.


Valrifell wrote:
There is no cure for this disease and it seems as though he'd spend the remainder of his life in a vegetative or semi-vegetative state. Ain't much of a life worth living.

The doctors don't know what "this disease" is.


1. I don't think that can be proven, and if he's not conscious and lacks gray matter he's already effectively dead and not feeling a thing.

2. The State's plan is to abandon them either way, I don't see the point in forcing them to stay in the country, shift the burden to people who've agreed to take it on since that's what the parents' want. Everyone here should just realize that it seems like that effort will ultimately be futile. If it's not, good for them.

3. It's either mitochondrial or a degenerate neural disease. If it's the former there is no cure, and no known way to even possibly save him. If it's the latter it's nigh-impossible, though the odds are better than if it was mitochondrial.
Last edited by Valrifell on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:11 am

Ifreann wrote:The state shouldn't abandon children because their parents are making a stink.

I'm struggling to see how the state isn't abandoning Alfie by actively preventing him from receiving appropriate care at the Vatican hospital.
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Miteravia
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Postby Miteravia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:13 am

Kosernia City wrote:Fun Fact: if the NHS Kills the baby the Italian Government can do them for murder

Actually they can't be indicted for any more than criminally negligent homicide or child endangerment and that was if they were found legally culpable. No British court would rule against itself.

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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:14 am

Valrifell wrote:It's either mitochondrial or a degenerate neural disease. If it's the former there is no cure, and no known way to even possibly save him. If it's the latter it's nigh-impossible, though the odds are better than if it was mitochondrial.

It is far too late, regardless of what has caused it. The damage to his brain is far too extensive. You'd literally have to reconstruct his brain in order to "save" him.
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Postby Auralia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:16 am

Excerpt from a statement by Fr. Roberto Colombo, a member of the Faculty of Medicine and Surgery at the Catholic University in Rome (partial translation here):

“This is consistent with the statement of the physicians from the Bambino Gesù Pediatric Hospital who visited Alfie in Liverpool — that a tracheostomy and gastrostomy are the recommended and appropriate palliative care for Alfie,” he added.

“Using this support cannot be ‘therapeutic obstinacy,’ because there is no therapy to be considered or discussed for his disease. Ventilation is provided to take care of him (his life) until his death occurs, soon or later, as a consequence of his disease.”
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:17 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Valrifell wrote:It's either mitochondrial or a degenerate neural disease. If it's the former there is no cure, and no known way to even possibly save him. If it's the latter it's nigh-impossible, though the odds are better than if it was mitochondrial.

It is far too late, regardless of what has caused it. The damage to his brain is far too extensive. You'd literally have to reconstruct his brain in order to "save" him.


Don't get me wrong, my preferred outcome is that the parents' find healthy ways to grieve over their child's condition that aren't stubborn denial. But I don't think anyone can point out to them how irrational and futile this effort actually is, nobody can tell them how to grieve or how to go about it. That's why I think that if they're really set on going to Italy and nobody close to them can talk them out of it, they should be allowed to go so long as the state isn't paying for it.
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:17 am

Valrifell wrote:
Kramanica wrote:They cut off his support, the child's still breathing, and they still won't agree to let him live.

What the fuck?


There is no cure for this disease and it seems as though he'd spend the remainder of his life in a vegetative or semi-vegetative state. Ain't much of a life worth living.

I can't really agree that you, or any other court on the planet, have any right to make that decision for him.

And if we are talking about cruelty it seems absurdly cruel to just cut off his life support and leave him to slowly die.
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:18 am

Saiwania wrote:Those parents are too emotionally attached and are so irrational. They don't have financial sense in that they're expending too much money to try to save someone who doesn't have over 50% odds of surviving and thus isn't worth the effort. I'd let my child die in that scenario. If fate wants them to pull through, they'll survive and return to normal. If not, then it was never meant to be.

If the woman ain't too old, just get them pregnant again and move on. In the animal kingdom, it is said that runts are meant to be forgotten or dismissed. Focus on the offspring that is actually normal or healthy.

You don't get out much, do you?
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Postby Alvecia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:18 am

Auralia wrote:
Alvecia wrote:Keeping him alive at this point is just cruel. He's functionally dead, and he won't be getting better.

It's never cruel to provide someone with the essentials of life. It is always cruel to deny them food, water, or oxygen, forcing them to die of starvation or asphyxiation rather than simply letting them die of their underlying condition. That's the difference between palliative care and euthanasia.

In any event, the parents' views take priority, and they clearly want the child to be provided with palliative care by the Vatican hospital.

No the difference between palliative care and euthanasia is that one ends up in a death. The other, in this context, is just keeping them propped up like a puppet and showing them off to any gawker with a camera like a prized pet.
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:18 am

Kramanica wrote:
Valrifell wrote:
There is no cure for this disease and it seems as though he'd spend the remainder of his life in a vegetative or semi-vegetative state. Ain't much of a life worth living.

I can't really agree that you, or any other court on the planet, have any right to make that decision for him.

And if we are talking about cruelty it seems absurdly cruel to just cut off his life support and leave him to slowly die.


It's a choice of letting his condition slowly take him or cutting off his life support and leaving him to slowly die.

From experience the cutting of life support is much faster.
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Divitalia
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Postby Divitalia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:20 am

Personally, I believe the government should have no part in this, no matter what is right or wrong here.

That being said, can the child even suffer while in a coma? Do they still feel pain?
Last edited by Divitalia on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:21 am

Valrifell wrote:
Kramanica wrote:I can't really agree that you, or any other court on the planet, have any right to make that decision for him.

And if we are talking about cruelty it seems absurdly cruel to just cut off his life support and leave him to slowly die.


It's a choice of letting his condition slowly take him or cutting off his life support and leaving him to slowly die.

From experience the cutting of life support is much faster.

I'd rather he at least be surrounded by people who want to help him rather than those who just opt to let him die. The Italian government even granted him citizenship so he can receive help there.
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Auralia
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Postby Auralia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:21 am

Valrifell wrote:It's a choice of letting his condition slowly take him or cutting off his life support and leaving him to slowly die.

There is a moral distinction between allowing someone to die of an incurable disease and effectively killing them by depriving them of the essentials of life.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:21 am

Kramanica wrote:And if we are talking about cruelty it seems absurdly cruel to just cut off his life support and leave him to slowly die.

Is "cruel" the right word, when all sentience and sapience has been extinguished by extensive brain damage? Is it possible to be cruel to a non-sentient and non-sapient being?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:22 am

Auralia wrote:
Valrifell wrote:It's a choice of letting his condition slowly take him or cutting off his life support and leaving him to slowly die.

There is a moral distinction between allowing someone to die of an incurable disease and effectively killing them by depriving them of the essentials of life.

This, as well.
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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:23 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Kramanica wrote:And if we are talking about cruelty it seems absurdly cruel to just cut off his life support and leave him to slowly die.

Is "cruel" the right word, when all sentience and sapience has been extinguished by extensive brain damage? Is it possible to be cruel to a non-sentient and non-sapient being?

By cutting off their life support and leaving them to die?

Yes, I'd say so. At least euthanize him or something. Why this slow decay?
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Postby Auralia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:25 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Kramanica wrote:And if we are talking about cruelty it seems absurdly cruel to just cut off his life support and leave him to slowly die.

Is "cruel" the right word, when all sentience and sapience has been extinguished by extensive brain damage? Is it possible to be cruel to a non-sentient and non-sapient being?

Are you arguing that Alfie is somehow less than human now because of his condition?
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Postby Saiwania » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:25 am

Sovaal wrote:Goddamit, what’s with all this “just get pregnant again and move on” shit? That’s not humanity fucking works, at least for most of us. You can’t just replace a person.
Nor do we have runts and litters. That’s not our our child bearing and raising works.


Why not? It would cost roughly around the same amount of money to have a 2nd child, provided the 1st child is no longer an expense. A new child won't be a perfect copy of the one that died but- so what? If you give a 2nd or even 3rd try a chance, they might just well be a "new and improved" version where growing up, they'll have few to no medical problems ever.

A person who is sickly all the time, with no logical explanation as to why- such as they're too old, they don't exercise or eat healthy enough, someone who have bizarre allergies that most people don't have: such as peanuts being toxic to them- that right there, is someone who people would probably think of as a runt or inferior in development.
Last edited by Saiwania on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kramanica
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Postby Kramanica » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:26 am

Saiwania wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Goddamit, what’s with all this “just get pregnant again and move on” shit? That’s not humanity fucking works, at least for most of us. You can’t just replace a person.
Nor do we have runts and litters. That’s not our our child bearing and raising works.


Why not?

Because we aren't all psychopaths and we actually care for our children, even those who are sick and disabled.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:28 am

Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Is "cruel" the right word, when all sentience and sapience has been extinguished by extensive brain damage? Is it possible to be cruel to a non-sentient and non-sapient being?

Are you arguing that Alfie is somehow less than human now because of his condition?

If my brain was removed, I'd say that would make me less human, yes.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Postby Alvecia » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:28 am

Auralia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Is "cruel" the right word, when all sentience and sapience has been extinguished by extensive brain damage? Is it possible to be cruel to a non-sentient and non-sapient being?

Are you arguing that Alfie is somehow less than human now because of his condition?

Arguably he's less of a person. Who we are as people is in the brain, the rest is just the machinery.
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Postby Sovaal » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:31 am

Saiwania wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Goddamit, what’s with all this “just get pregnant again and move on” shit? That’s not humanity fucking works, at least for most of us. You can’t just replace a person.
Nor do we have runts and litters. That’s not our our child bearing and raising works.


Why not? It would cost roughly around the same amount of money to have a 2nd child, provided the 1st child is no longer an expense. A new child won't be a perfect copy of the one that died but- so what? If you give a 2nd or even 3rd try a chance, they might just well be a "new and improved" version where growing up, they'll have few to no medical problems ever.

A person who is sickly all the time, with no logical explanation as to why- such as they're too old, they don't exercise or eat healthy enough, someone who have bizarre allergies that most people don't have: such as peanuts being toxic to them- that right there, is someone who people would probably think of as a runt or inferior in development.

Because that’s not how we fucking work. We’re not practical beings, we are ruled though primal emotions, we’re not machines, and personally I think we’re the better for that. What your talking about is not just cold, but antithetical to the human condition, to millions of years of human evolution. We don’t have runts, you can’t replace people, hell you can’t even replace pets, that’s just not how this shit works. Most of us care for our family, even the old, sick, and weak.

Kramanica wrote:
Saiwania wrote:
Why not?

Because we aren't all psychopaths and we actually care for our children, even those who are sick and disabled.

This, fucking this a thousand times over.
Last edited by Sovaal on Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is
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Winston Churchill, 1947.

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