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Britain to cut off life support of infant Alfie Evans soon

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Hatterleigh
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Britain to cut off life support of infant Alfie Evans soon

Postby Hatterleigh » Tue Apr 24, 2018 6:29 pm

If you guys didn't know, for the past months in britain there has been a case about a sick young child named Alfie Evans. Britain has ruled against the parents seeking medical practice from the US and Italy, and plans to let the child die without the parents consent. Some people for the cutting off of Alfie's life support claim that it's futile and inhumane, but in my personal opinion that doesn't justify barring these people from seeking further medical treatment, and that government has no right to decide if a baby lives or dies.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4312535/a ... -hospital/

So what do you guys think about this situation? Feel free to put your opinions on this thread
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:16 pm

I mean..

However, he said, Alfie’s undiagnosed degenerative condition had “almost entirely wiped out” his brain matter, which was now little more than water and cerebrospinal fluid.

It's indeed sad and no parent can be judged for wanting to save their child but it seems as inhumane to keep it technically alive. In fact the trauma and legal actions around the case probably do more to harm the parents in the long run.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:22 pm

Pick a better source than The Sun.
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:24 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:Pick a better source than The Sun.

Its not like they made the story up (since it has been reported on before) unless the sun really is the conspiratorial mastermind behind all anglo media as some portray it to be.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:25 pm

Benuty wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:Pick a better source than The Sun.

Its not like they made the story up (since it has been reported on before) unless the sun really is the conspiratorial mastermind behind all anglo media as some portray it to be.


The Sun has bare tits. That makes it not acceptable on this forum.
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:26 pm

Bombadil wrote:I mean..

However, he said, Alfie’s undiagnosed degenerative condition had “almost entirely wiped out” his brain matter, which was now little more than water and cerebrospinal fluid.

It's indeed sad and no parent can be judged for wanting to save their child but it seems as inhumane to keep it technically alive. In fact, the trauma and legal actions around the case probably do more to harm the parents in the long run.

Case in point just looks at Terri Schiavo's parents who had that case drug on for fifteen damn years and still haven't gotten over it. Hell, sometime back after a young girl went brain dead presumably during a grave human error in the middle of surgery they chose to pay for lawyers to represent that family who wanted to keep her on life support.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:28 pm

Benuty wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:Pick a better source than The Sun.

Its not like they made the story up (since it has been reported on before) unless the sun really is the conspiratorial mastermind behind all anglo media as some portray it to be.


If nothing else the article was kind of light on actual information. It very briefly mentions the religious aspect but this case is paid for and fuelled by religious interests. The judge called the Christian Legal Centre lawyer - a “deluded and fanatical young man” who risked imprisonment for contempt of court with some of his legal advice.

Further..

An Alder Hey clinician told the hearing it was currently “impossible” to move Alfie home for palliative care treatment because of the breakdown in the relationship between doctors and the family, and the hostility of some of the boy’s supporters, who have been protesting outside the hospital for days. On Monday a group of them tried to storm the hospital.

This poor child has no brain, and is being used as a pawn as are the parents.

I don't necessarily mind The Sun but I just found this article odd so I went to look at other sources.
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Benuty
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Postby Benuty » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:29 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Benuty wrote:Its not like they made the story up (since it has been reported on before) unless the sun really is the conspiratorial mastermind behind all anglo media as some portray it to be.


The Sun has bare tits. That makes it not acceptable on this forum.

Whats wrong with tits they are beautiful birds?

Image
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Garden at 6th Mile Road
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Postby Garden at 6th Mile Road » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:31 pm

Benuty wrote:Whats wrong with tits they are beautiful birds?



Ohhh what a tit!

...

Going back to the topic, I think it's sad but you will have to let it go. I mean, if he survives without that much of a brain, think about how crippled will he be for life.

Another source, this time from Express: https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/95033 ... -injection
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Postby Dogmeat » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:32 pm

Benuty wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
The Sun has bare tits. That makes it not acceptable on this forum.

Whats wrong with tits they are beautiful birds?

Image

True, but they look weird when bare.

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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:33 pm

Where does it say the state won't let them seek help elsewhere?
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:36 pm

Vovodoco wrote:Where does it say the state won't let them seek help elsewhere?


It's true.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-me ... e-43883865
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:36 pm

Vovodoco wrote:Where does it say the state won't let them seek help elsewhere?


The parents of Alfie Evans have lost a last-ditch legal appeal to fly their son to Vatican City in what a high court judge called “the final chapter in the case of this extraordinary little boy”.

A barrister for Tom Evans and Kate James asked Mr Justice Hayden to show “common humanity and common sense” and allow the seriously ill 23-month-old boy to leave Alder Hey hospital in Liverpool.

The judge said all medical experts agreed that further treatment was futile and it would be against Alfie’s best interests to fly to the Vatican’s Bambino Gesù hospital in Rome. However, he added, there was a small possibility Alfie could be cared for at home or in a hospice “for his final days or hours”.


The right to fly them to the Vatican was kind of the point of this final appeal.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:41 pm

Ahhhh I gotcha.

Despite the pretty obvious futility of seeking treatment, the government has no right to stop them. US healthcare has its flaws, but at least with the freedom and flexibility it provides, not being allowed to seek healthcare elsewhere would never happen.

To my knowledge anyway. Nothing in recent memory at least.
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New Emeline
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Postby New Emeline » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:43 pm

I can understand refusing to continue to offer life support, but why ban them from going anywhere else?

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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:45 pm

New Emeline wrote:I can understand refusing to continue to offer life support, but why ban them from going anywhere else?


The court is acting in loco parentis. It's looking after the best interest of the child.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:46 pm

New Emeline wrote:I can understand refusing to continue to offer life support, but why ban them from going anywhere else?

Well, to put it mathematically:

government opinion>your opinion
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:48 pm

Banning him from other places doesn't make sense, but if his entire brain doesn't exist, his life will be torture, even on the tiny chance that he survives.
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:56 pm

The South Falls wrote:Banning him from other places doesn't make sense, but if his entire brain doesn't exist, his life will be torture, even on the tiny chance that he survives.


I think to say 'banning him', while technically correct perhaps, doesn't capture it - essentially the move is completely futile. It's inhumane and cruel to keep what is essentially a lifeform in a vegetative state alive, transport them elsewhere, all for no purpose.

The question is whether to extend this lifeforms existence over banning from visiting other countries.
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:58 pm

Bombadil wrote:
The South Falls wrote:Banning him from other places doesn't make sense, but if his entire brain doesn't exist, his life will be torture, even on the tiny chance that he survives.


I think to say 'banning him', while technically correct perhaps, doesn't capture it - essentially the move is completely futile. It's inhumane and cruel to keep what is essentially a lifeform in a vegetative state alive, transport them elsewhere, all for no purpose.

The question is whether to extend this lifeforms existence over banning from visiting other countries.

I don't know if letting him receive care in other countries would have done anything. Maybe, maybe not. But all I do know is that it's inhumane to keep him in that artificial vegetative state, for all this time.
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Postby Albrenia » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:59 pm

This is one of those decisions I'd never want to have to make.

Prolong hopeless misery while upholding the freedom of parents to do anything they can to help their child, or end said misery by denying said parents even the chance to try...

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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:01 pm

The South Falls wrote:
Bombadil wrote:
I think to say 'banning him', while technically correct perhaps, doesn't capture it - essentially the move is completely futile. It's inhumane and cruel to keep what is essentially a lifeform in a vegetative state alive, transport them elsewhere, all for no purpose.

The question is whether to extend this lifeforms existence over banning from visiting other countries.

I don't know if letting him receive care in other countries would have done anything. Maybe, maybe not. But all I do know is that it's inhumane to keep him in that artificial vegetative state, for all this time.


What can be done when 'Alfie’s undiagnosed degenerative condition had “almost entirely wiped out” his brain matter, which was now little more than water and cerebrospinal fluid.

Are the Vatican going to pray in a new brain, or simply keep it technically alive as part of a 'right to life' campaign.

The court has ruled that letting him receive care in other countries will do nothing. You and I might maintain that 'we don't know' but the doctors and courts are pretty sure they do know.

Not to say I don't feel sorry for the family, must be a terrible ordeal.
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The South Falls
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Postby The South Falls » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:06 pm

Albrenia wrote:This is one of those decisions I'd never want to have to make.

Prolong hopeless misery while upholding the freedom of parents to do anything they can to help their child, or end said misery by denying said parents even the chance to try...

But then continue the misery once they figure out they lost their child.
Bombadil wrote:
The South Falls wrote:I don't know if letting him receive care in other countries would have done anything. Maybe, maybe not. But all I do know is that it's inhumane to keep him in that artificial vegetative state, for all this time.


What can be done when 'Alfie’s undiagnosed degenerative condition had “almost entirely wiped out” his brain matter, which was now little more than water and cerebrospinal fluid.

Are the Vatican going to pray in a new brain, or simply keep it technically alive as part of a 'right to life' campaign.

The court has ruled that letting him receive care in other countries will do nothing. You and I might maintain that 'we don't know' but the doctors and courts are pretty sure they do know.

Not to say I don't feel sorry for the family, must be a terrible ordeal.

Well, this is an absolutely horrible thing to do. Let your child die, and end that misery, or prolong that misery in knowing he'll never do anything, or go anywhere, but that he's still technically alive.
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Bombadil
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Postby Bombadil » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:08 pm

The South Falls wrote:
Albrenia wrote:This is one of those decisions I'd never want to have to make.

Prolong hopeless misery while upholding the freedom of parents to do anything they can to help their child, or end said misery by denying said parents even the chance to try...

But then continue the misery once they figure out they lost their child.
Bombadil wrote:
What can be done when 'Alfie’s undiagnosed degenerative condition had “almost entirely wiped out” his brain matter, which was now little more than water and cerebrospinal fluid.

Are the Vatican going to pray in a new brain, or simply keep it technically alive as part of a 'right to life' campaign.

The court has ruled that letting him receive care in other countries will do nothing. You and I might maintain that 'we don't know' but the doctors and courts are pretty sure they do know.

Not to say I don't feel sorry for the family, must be a terrible ordeal.

Well, this is an absolutely horrible thing to do. Let your child die, and end that misery, or prolong that misery in knowing he'll never do anything, or go anywhere, but that he's still technically alive.


Yeah.. in thinking about it I'm beginning to think that sending him to the Vatican might not be a bad idea.. I mean for the comfort of the parents the idea that a miracle might happen.. and if the Vatican can't do anything that might be easier on them to accept than what I imagine is being portrayed as the heartless state and medical community by vested interests around the family.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:10 pm

Bombadil wrote:
The South Falls wrote:But then continue the misery once they figure out they lost their child.

Well, this is an absolutely horrible thing to do. Let your child die, and end that misery, or prolong that misery in knowing he'll never do anything, or go anywhere, but that he's still technically alive.


Yeah.. in thinking about it I'm beginning to think that sending him to the Vatican might not be a bad idea.. I mean for the comfort of the parents the idea that a miracle might happen.. and if the Vatican can't do anything that might be easier on them to accept than what I imagine is being portrayed as the heartless state and medical community by vested interests around the family.


This isn't the first time the NHS has had to go through this recently. And it continues to fight for the wellbeing of the child rather than good press.
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