The General Car Thread - The Facelift.

[Freezic Vast]

Here's a question, would you own a Merc 600 Grosser, despite the fact the majority of people who owned one were some of the most evil people who murdered thousands if not millions of people? (Like Saddam, Pol Pot, Castro and worst of all, Elvis)

Pol Pot used to breathe, yet I've been doing it for nearly 17 years.

Besides, the 600's hydraulics are a much bigger argument against owning it.

What is wrong with the 600's hydraulics?

[Petrolheadia]

Pol Pot used to breathe, yet I've been doing it for nearly 17 years.

Besides, the 600's hydraulics are a much bigger argument against owning it.

What is wrong with the 600's hydraulics?

It's an expensive bitch to run, with the high pressure, expensive parts and fluid.

US makers had the right idea with air suspension and servos. They're simple mechatronics with relatively low pressure that use electricity or air, some of the easiest-to-get things in the world.

[Vassenor]

What is wrong with the 600's hydraulics?

It's an expensive bitch to run, with the high pressure, expensive parts and fluid.

US makers had the right idea with air suspension and servos. They're simple mechatronics with relatively low pressure that use electricity or air, some of the easiest-to-get things in the world.

...So that's where the £15K service bill came from.

[Pope Joan]

My old friend went to fairs and shows and bought old cars, spruced them up, brought them back next year to sell at a profit, and used that to buy more cars.
He reimaged many Cadillacs, and made me laugh by describing that emissions scrubbing device as a "Cadillac converter". Never sure whether or not he was joking,

His favorite was an old Crosley he had rebuilt to perfection, original paint match and everything, It was nobody's ideal ride; for instance, the doors made a mild "click" when you slammed them shut. But as an example of what the car had been, it could not be better.

http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Crosley/

It looks both posh and austere, somehow.

Might it be poshtere? with an imposing poshterior?

[Patridam]

Here's a question, would you own a Merc 600 Grosser, despite the fact the majority of people who owned one were some of the most evil people who murdered thousands if not millions of people? (Like Saddam, Pol Pot, Castro and worst of all, Elvis)

A contemporary Cadillac was and is a much more compelling sales case than the 600. The Grosser was only *slightly* better in some ways, worse in others, than the Cadillac that cost 1/4th the price and now costs 1/10th the price; and much of this advantage could be destroyed with modern radials and gas shocks. In contemporary reviews the Cadillac was superior to both the other American cars as well as the best the British had to offer (Rolls & Jaguar). It would also naturally be much, much easier and less expensive to care for the Caddy than the Grosser; one repair bill on the Mercedes can exceed the entire value of the Cadillac. Relevant and interesting read.

But, of all the reasons, who *owned* it would not influence what cars I would and would not get. That's bordering on "Hitler liked dogs, if you have a dog you're a Nazi" territory.

[Petrolheadia]

Here's a question, would you own a Merc 600 Grosser, despite the fact the majority of people who owned one were some of the most evil people who murdered thousands if not millions of people? (Like Saddam, Pol Pot, Castro and worst of all, Elvis)

A contemporary Cadillac was and is a much more compelling sales case than the 600. The Grosser was only *slightly* better in some ways, worse in others, than the Cadillac that cost 1/4th the price and now costs 1/10th the price; and much of this advantage could be destroyed with modern radials and gas shocks. In contemporary reviews the Cadillac was superior to both the other American cars as well as the best the British had to offer (Rolls & Jaguar). It would also naturally be much, much easier and less expensive to care for the Caddy than the Grosser; one repair bill on the Mercedes can exceed the entire value of the Cadillac. Relevant and interesting read.

But, of all the reasons, who *owned* it would not influence what cars I would and would not get. That's bordering on "Hitler liked dogs, if you have a dog you're a Nazi" territory.

Maybe Cadillac did not have Mercedes quality, but it had even better value.

When I think about, CAFE was probably what killed US luxury cars.
As automakers couldn't build the big, but high-value cars they damn well knew how to make, they had to try competing with the imports, with rather varying success.

[Elwher]

Here's a question: How many of you drive cars from before 1985 on a daily basis?

I've got a 1979 Ford Fairmont station wagon that I daily from April to October

1978 MG Midget, driven daily from April or May until November.

[Auzkhia]

Here's a question, would you own a Merc 600 Grosser, despite the fact the majority of people who owned one were some of the most evil people who murdered thousands if not millions of people? (Like Saddam, Pol Pot, Castro and worst of all, Elvis)

Yes, simply because it has the loudest horn in the world.

[Petrolheadia]

Here's a question: How many of you drive cars from before 1985 on a daily basis?

I've got a 1979 Ford Fairmont station wagon that I daily from April to October

Well, back until the 00s, they used to daily these all year long.

[NeoOasis]

Maybe Cadillac did not have Mercedes quality, but it had even better value.

When I think about, CAFE was probably what killed US luxury cars.
As automakers couldn't build the big, but high-value cars they damn well knew how to make, they had to try competing with the imports, with rather varying success.

Americans were losing ground before CAFE became a thing. Not everyone wanted/appreciated the massive junks that sailed the asphalt seas of America. The Europeans and especially the Japanese were able to fill and expand a market niche that the Americans utterly ignored until the first oil crisis in the 1970s. By that point the Japanese cars started taking solid chunks of the US market.

By the time the 1970s rolled around. I'd seriously doubt any arguements of "value" the Americans provided. Sometimes the better value is more expensive. Eitherway, the launching of the Japanese luxury brands are what killed the US luxury car. Why buy American when you can buy Japanese at a lower cost, higher value, and much much higher quality. There's a reason the Lexus LS used German cars as a benchmark. They were the only ones worth comparing against.

[Auzkhia]

Maybe Cadillac did not have Mercedes quality, but it had even better value.

When I think about, CAFE was probably what killed US luxury cars.
As automakers couldn't build the big, but high-value cars they damn well knew how to make, they had to try competing with the imports, with rather varying success.

Americans were losing ground before CAFE became a thing. Not everyone wanted/appreciated the massive junks that sailed the asphalt seas of America. The Europeans and especially the Japanese were able to fill and expand a market niche that the Americans utterly ignored until the first oil crisis in the 1970s. By that point the Japanese cars started taking solid chunks of the US market.

By the time the 1970s rolled around. I'd seriously doubt any arguements of "value" the Americans provided. Sometimes the better value is more expensive. Eitherway, the launching of the Japanese luxury brands are what killed the US luxury car. Why buy American when you can buy Japanese at a lower cost, higher value, and much much higher quality. There's a reason the Lexus LS used German cars as a benchmark. They were the only ones worth comparing against.

There were also safety and quality issues plagued American made cars before the fuel crisis happened. Ford, GM, and Chrysler cheaped out and realized it was cheaper to pay lawsuit settlements that it was to fix the issues. You were supposed to buy a new car every couple years, they made their cars disposable.

[NeoOasis]

Americans were losing ground before CAFE became a thing. Not everyone wanted/appreciated the massive junks that sailed the asphalt seas of America. The Europeans and especially the Japanese were able to fill and expand a market niche that the Americans utterly ignored until the first oil crisis in the 1970s. By that point the Japanese cars started taking solid chunks of the US market.

By the time the 1970s rolled around. I'd seriously doubt any arguements of "value" the Americans provided. Sometimes the better value is more expensive. Eitherway, the launching of the Japanese luxury brands are what killed the US luxury car. Why buy American when you can buy Japanese at a lower cost, higher value, and much much higher quality. There's a reason the Lexus LS used German cars as a benchmark. They were the only ones worth comparing against.

There were also safety and quality issues plagued American made cars before the fuel crisis happened. Ford, GM, and Chrysler cheaped out and realized it was cheaper to pay lawsuit settlements that it was to fix the issues. You were supposed to buy a new car every couple years, they made their cars disposable.

Ah yes... the forever cursed Pinto. Still I'd take a Pinto over a Chevy Vega. At least the Pinto had an engine that didn't die after a few months. Granted the AMC Pacer would be the car I want of the three.

[Auzkhia]

There were also safety and quality issues plagued American made cars before the fuel crisis happened. Ford, GM, and Chrysler cheaped out and realized it was cheaper to pay lawsuit settlements that it was to fix the issues. You were supposed to buy a new car every couple years, they made their cars disposable.

Ah yes... the forever cursed Pinto. Still I'd take a Pinto over a Chevy Vega. At least the Pinto had an engine that didn't die after a few months. Granted the AMC Pacer would be the car I want of the three.

The Vega was so poor quality that it was an unfinished car.

At least sharp competition forces big companies to care.

[Elwher]

There were also safety and quality issues plagued American made cars before the fuel crisis happened. Ford, GM, and Chrysler cheaped out and realized it was cheaper to pay lawsuit settlements that it was to fix the issues. You were supposed to buy a new car every couple years, they made their cars disposable.

Ah yes... the forever cursed Pinto. Still I'd take a Pinto over a Chevy Vega. At least the Pinto had an engine that didn't die after a few months. Granted the AMC Pacer would be the car I want of the three.

Given the legal landscape of the times, Ford's decision to pay the lawsuits instead of recalling the car made a great deal of sense. The only thing they did not count on was the decision being splashed all over the papers.

[The Liberated Territories]

I own a 2013 BMW 3 series

As for Tesla, I think they are a bit overrated imo Just look at their numbers

[Mike the Progressive]

I own a 2013 BMW 3 series

As for Tesla, I think they are a bit overrated imo Just look at their numbers

This concerns me as well. I like Tesla cars, but I don't like Tesla's numbers. What concerns me is how long they'll be there down the road.

[Auzkhia]

Ford Carmaggedan update: Lincoln MKZ and Continental are here to stay

I knew it, Lincoln keeps the sedans going.

[NeoOasis]

Ford Carmaggedan update: Lincoln MKZ and Continental are here to stay

I knew it, Lincoln keeps the sedans going.

That's good to hear. Especially since the Continental is essentially new on the market. MKZ could do with a redesign, not sure where Lincoln will source their platform from though.

[Auzkhia]

Ford Carmaggedan update: Lincoln MKZ and Continental are here to stay

I knew it, Lincoln keeps the sedans going.

That's good to hear. Especially since the Continental is essentially new on the market. MKZ could do with a redesign, not sure where Lincoln will source their platform from though.

They still make the Mondeo, and the Fusion will at least stay around for a couple years. The CD3 and CD4 platform can still be had for Lincoln.

The Ford Edge and Galaxy use it too.

[NeoOasis]

That's good to hear. Especially since the Continental is essentially new on the market. MKZ could do with a redesign, not sure where Lincoln will source their platform from though.

They still make the Mondeo, and the Fusion will at least stay around for a couple years. The CD3 and CD4 platform can still be had for Lincoln.

The Ford Edge and Galaxy use it too.

The Mondeo IS the Fusion. Meaning they won't be doing a full redesign for that platform. It's getting a refresh, but no new drivetrains or compelling features. Meaning the Mondeo will most likely be phased out in 2022... maybe earlier depending on sales. At least Europe continues on with the Fiesta and a standard Focus... of which I'm immensely jealous of.

And since they're keeping the Fiesta and Focus around for now (in Europeland), it should mean they can quickly shift gears and reintroduce both to the US market should gas prices balloon out of control again.

[Petrolheadia]

Maybe Cadillac did not have Mercedes quality, but it had even better value.

When I think about, CAFE was probably what killed US luxury cars.
As automakers couldn't build the big, but high-value cars they damn well knew how to make, they had to try competing with the imports, with rather varying success.

Americans were losing ground before CAFE became a thing. Not everyone wanted/appreciated the massive junks that sailed the asphalt seas of America.

Yet the Chevrolet Caprice/Impala line was bestseller in 1978, '79 and '80.

The US cars had the chance past the 80s compact craze, but it was lost through CAFE discouraging investment in big cars.

The Europeans and especially the Japanese were able to fill and expand a market niche that the Americans utterly ignored until the first oil crisis in the 1970s.

What? The Vega, Pinto, Gremlin and Cricket were all pre-crisis cars.

[By that point the Japanese cars started taking solid chunks of the US market.

Because no automaker felt compelled to tell people that if you're paying $4k more for a slower import to save $1000 on gas and $500 on repairs, you're a sheeple.

By the time the 1970s rolled around. I'd seriously doubt any arguements of "value" the Americans provided. Sometimes the better value is more expensive.

Better value is cheaper.

If the Oldsmobile Cutlass was nearly as good as a W116, then how would a Cadillac Fleetwood compare to a W123?

Eitherway, the launching of the Japanese luxury brands are what killed the US luxury car. Why buy American when you can buy Japanese at a lower cost, higher value, and much much higher quality.

Because you couldn't. The base Lexus LS400 was over $7k more expensive than the Lincoln Town Car,,which provided as much comfort with its air suspension, and as much reliability with its engines. To wit, the Modular V8 Town Cars, which are legendarily reliable, are often ignored in favor of Windsor ones, as these are even more reliable.

There's a reason the Lexus LS used German cars as a benchmark.

They had buyers too snobby to buy American.

Ah yes... the forever cursed Pinto.

No, it wasn't.

Mother Jones just needed a cool "big business hates you" story for its liberal readers, and picked the Pinto.

In reality, according to the Prof. Schwartz's investigation:

When considering the overall safety of the Pinto, Schwartz notes that subcompact cars as a class have a generally higher fatality risk. Pintos represented 1.9% of all cars on the road in the 1975–76 period. During that time the car represented 1.9% of all "fatal accidents accompanied by some fire." Implying the car was average for all cars and slightly above average for its class. When all types of fatalities are considered the Pinto was approximately even with the AMC Gremlin, Chevrolet Vega, and Datsun 510. It was significantly better than the Datsun 1200/210, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

[Costa Fierro]

When I think about, CAFE was probably what killed US luxury cars.

Lincoln wasn't doing too badly during the beginning of CAFE (Versailles not withstanding). GM's mismanagement of Cadillac is almost what killed it off. Lincoln and Cadillac are still around and the latter at least is actually doing better than the former.

[Gim]

When I think about, CAFE was probably what killed US luxury cars.

Lincoln wasn't doing too badly during the beginning of CAFE (Versailles not withstanding). GM's mismanagement of Cadillac is almost what killed it off. Lincoln and Cadillac are still around and the latter at least is actually doing better than the former.

Lincoln isn't selling much in Canada anymore.

[Costa Fierro]

Yet the Chevrolet Caprice/Impala line was bestseller in 1978, '79 and '80.

...for mid sized cars.

The US cars had the chance past the 80s compact craze, but it was lost through CAFE discouraging investment in big cars.

Investment in big cars was scaled back because when oil prices bottomed out in the 80's, everyone could afford to fuel something larger. The difference was that unlike post 1973, post 1979 and probably post 1983 when the price of oil went into freefall, American domestic manufacturers weren't making nearly as many large cars as they were before hand. GM had virtually completed its downsizing, Ford was following close behind and Chrysler was going krazy with its K-Kars. Changes in what people were buying were also behind the decline of the big American car. The Jeep Wrangler and Chrysler Voyager offered way more practicality and better fuel economy than contemporary station wagons and large sedans.

What? The Vega, Pinto, Gremlin and Cricket were all pre-crisis cars.

And all of them were complete shit. The Vega had numerous build quality and reliability issues, the Pinto suffered the same issues in addition to its infamous exploding fuel tanks, the AMC Gremlin was ugly looking and made by a company that was already circling the proverbial drain and the Plymouth Cricket was a rebadged version of what Chrysler was selling and manufacturing in Europe after it acquired the Rootes Group.

Because no automaker felt compelled to tell people that if you're paying $4k more for a slower import to save $1000 on gas and $500 on repairs, you're a sheeple.

No, what happened was that they offered cars that were either ugly as sin or exploded on occasion and then sat back and scratched their head as to why Americans flocked to cars like the Corolla and the Civic. Cars that were affordable, had better and more fuel efficient engines and didn't explode.

Better value is cheaper.

That's GM thinking. Turns out if you cheap out on basically everything, the end product is always going to be terrible.

If the Oldsmobile Cutlass was nearly as good as a W116, then how would a Cadillac Fleetwood compare to a W123?

Complete shit as it turns out.

Because you couldn't. The base Lexus LS400 was over $7k more expensive than the Lincoln Town Car,,which provided as much comfort with its air suspension, and as much reliability with its engines. To wit, the Modular V8 Town Cars, which are legendarily reliable, are often ignored in favor of Windsor ones, as these are even more reliable.

And yet Lexus is now in a much better financial shape than Lincoln is and is now reknowned for being among the best and most technologically advanced cars money can by. Lincoln, on the other hand, are largely just tarted up Fords, although the new Continental and Navigator are a step in the right direction.

And the Town Car at least initially was selling more. However, things changed. The Lexus got better and better whereas the Town Car did not. By 2012, the last year for the Town Car, sales had dropped to 1,001 for that year. Conversely, Lexus was shifted 8,344 LS' over the same 12 months. It's successor, the MKS, was selling more than the LS was...until it's sales too dropped considerably. Lincoln sold 153 MKS' last year. Lexus managed to sell 4,094 units of the LS in the same period. LS sales have remained more or less steady whereas the MKS sales initially saw promise and then declined.

They had buyers too snobby to buy American.

No, they were aiming to beat the Germans at their own game.

No, it wasn't.

It was. Exploding fuel tanks aside, the Pinto suffered from general bad build quality and had reliability issues.

[Petrolheadia]

Yet the Chevrolet Caprice/Impala line was bestseller in 1978, '79 and '80.

...for mid sized cars.

For cars, period.

The US cars had the chance past the 80s compact craze, but it was lost through CAFE discouraging investment in big cars.

Investment in big cars was scaled back because when oil prices bottomed out in the 80's, everyone could afford to fuel something larger. The difference was that unlike post 1973, post 1979 and probably post 1983 when the price of oil went into freefall, American domestic manufacturers weren't making nearly as many large cars as they were before hand. GM had virtually completed its downsizing, Ford was following close behind and Chrysler was going krazy with its K-Kars. Changes in what people were buying were also behind the decline of the big American car. The Jeep Wrangler and Chrysler Voyager offered way more practicality and better fuel economy than contemporary station wagons and large sedans.

The difference was that CAFE discouraged US makers from investing in large cars, which is what the US customers wanted.

"The Jeep Wrangler [...] offered way more practicality and better fuel economy than contemporary station wagons and large sedans.
What drug are you on?

The Jeep Wrangler and Chrysler Voyager offered way more practicality and better fuel economy than contemporary station wagons and large sedans.

What? The Vega, Pinto, Gremlin and Cricket were all pre-crisis cars.

And all of them were complete shit. The Vega had numerous build quality and reliability issues, the Pinto suffered the same issues in addition to its infamous exploding fuel tanks, the AMC Gremlin was ugly looking and made by a company that was already circling the proverbial drain and the Plymouth Cricket was a rebadged version of what Chrysler was selling and manufacturing in Europe after it acquired the Rootes Group.[/quote]
First, styling is a matter of personal taste.

Second, to quote Wikipedia again on Pinto safety:

When considering the overall safety of the Pinto, Schwartz notes that subcompact cars as a class have a generally higher fatality risk. Pintos represented 1.9% of all cars on the road in the 1975–76 period. During that time the car represented 1.9% of all "fatal accidents accompanied by some fire." Implying the car was average for all cars and slightly above average for its class. When all types of fatalities are considered the Pinto was approximately even with the AMC Gremlin, Chevrolet Vega, and Datsun 510. It was significantly better than the Datsun 1200/210, Toyota Corolla and VW Beetle.

Third, the Pinto was 1974's bestseller, which isn't done with bad quality.

Because no automaker felt compelled to tell people that if you're paying $4k more for a slower import to save $1000 on gas and $500 on repairs, you're a sheeple.

No, what happened was that they offered cars that were either ugly as sin or exploded on occasion

We already mentioned the explosions, didn't we?

and then sat back and scratched their head as to why Americans flocked to cars like the Corolla and the Civic.

Sheeple effect.

Cars that were affordable,

Bull-fucking-shit.
For example, the Japanese compacts (e.g. Corona, Accord) would cost as much as American midsizers (e.g. Malibu, Diplomat) and the midsize Toyota Cressida would run you more than a fullsize Buick wagon.

and didn't explode.

Geez, you don't stop, do you?

Better value is cheaper.

That's GM thinking. Turns out if you cheap out on basically everything, the end product is always going to be terrible.

No, it's going to give better value at marginal cuts on other things.

If the Oldsmobile Cutlass was nearly as good as a W116, then how would a Cadillac Fleetwood compare to a W123?

Complete shit as it turns out.

I guess Toyota and Honda can also be considered complete shit - the former had ultra-rusting Tundra frames and unstoppable throttles, the latter has self-lunching transmissions.

Because you couldn't. The base Lexus LS400 was over $7k more expensive than the Lincoln Town Car,,which provided as much comfort with its air suspension, and as much reliability with its engines. To wit, the Modular V8 Town Cars, which are legendarily reliable, are often ignored in favor of Windsor ones, as these are even more reliable.

And yet Lexus is now in a much better financial shape than Lincoln is and is now reknowned for being among the best and most technologically advanced cars money can by. Lincoln, on the other hand, are largely just tarted up Fords, although the new Continental and Navigator are a step in the right direction.

Once again, CAFE discouraging investment in luxury US cars.

They had buyers too snobby to buy American.

No, they were aiming to beat the Germans at their own game.

Of appealing to snobs with money to burn.