The General Car Thread - The Facelift.

[Petrolheadia]

Have you ever actaully bought a sports car?

Because when people put that much money down on a car (even the cheapest sports cars cost as much as a Ford Focus), they prefer not to have a one-trick-pony. And I don't think something like a new 911, F-Type or 812 Superfast isn't an event.

I've bought, owned several, and still own sports cars of various types and styles. All older cars of course.

I just don't enjoy modern cars, I loathe the majority of them to be frank. I like having a sports car not a Swiss army knife. I don't need or want infotainment, or a million buttons, or ridiculous reverse cameras.

You bought them used?

Well, that's the thing. If you spend a few grand on a car, you may expect less than what someone who decided to spare a few dozen, or over a hundred grand.

And you can have modern features in a cool sports car. MX-5,anyone?

[Cannot think of a name]

I've bought, owned several, and still own sports cars of various types and styles. All older cars of course.

I just don't enjoy modern cars, I loathe the majority of them to be frank. I like having a sports car not a Swiss army knife. I don't need or want infotainment, or a million buttons, or ridiculous reverse cameras.

You bought them used?

Well, that's the thing. If you spend a few grand on a car, you may expect less than what someone who decided to spare a few dozen, or over a hundred grand.

And you can have modern features in a cool sports car. MX-5,anyone?

Dude, do you even have your license yet? You really gotta stop trying to lecture people who have been driving longer than you've been alive about what they want in a car.

[Petrolheadia]

You bought them used?

Well, that's the thing. If you spend a few grand on a car, you may expect less than what someone who decided to spare a few dozen, or over a hundred grand.

And you can have modern features in a cool sports car. MX-5,anyone?

Dude, do you even have your license yet? You really gotta stop trying to lecture people who have been driving longer than you've been alive about what they want in a car.

I'm talkinga about money here. If you are spending a wad of cash on something, it better not be a one-trick pony.

Plus,complaining about things like infotainment is quite superficial, especially since sports cars historically weren't skimping on creature comforts.

[Cannot think of a name]

Dude, do you even have your license yet? You really gotta stop trying to lecture people who have been driving longer than you've been alive about what they want in a car.

I'm talkinga about money here.

We're talking about cars.

If you are spending a wad of cash on something, it better not be a one-trick pony.

Again, you haven't bought a car from anywhere other than a toy shelf. You don't get to lecture someone who has had multiple actual cars on what they want.

Plus,complaining about things like infotainment is quite superficial, especially since sports cars historically weren't skimping on creature comforts.

Patently false. Some luxury and GT cars have had creature comforts, sure. Others have pointedly not, and enthusiasts have flocked to those cars just as well. Even today Porsche regularly makes special models for enthusiasts where the list of shit the car doesn't have is longer than the shit the car does. Hell, the new Speedster for the outgoing 991 doesn't even have door handles, it has a strap.

You gotta stop with this, dude. Like the cars you like, that's the fun. Quit trying to tell people they're wrong about what they like. It's dumb. Especially when you're talking to people who have had and enjoyed cars for years. Try just enjoying shit. It won't hurt, I swear.

[Petrolheadia]

I'm talkinga about money here.

We're talking about cars.

If you are spending a wad of cash on something, it better not be a one-trick pony.

Again, you haven't bought a car from anywhere other than a toy shelf. You don't get to lecture someone who has had multiple actual cars on what they want.

Plus,complaining about things like infotainment is quite superficial, especially since sports cars historically weren't skimping on creature comforts.

Patently false. Some luxury and GT cars have had creature comforts, sure. Others have pointedly not, and enthusiasts have flocked to those cars just as well. Even today Porsche regularly makes special models for enthusiasts where the list of shit the car doesn't have is longer than the shit the car does. Hell, the new Speedster for the outgoing 991 doesn't even have door handles, it has a strap.

You gotta stop with this, dude. Like the cars you like, that's the fun. Quit trying to tell people they're wrong about what they like. It's dumb. Especially when you're talking to people who have had and enjoyed cars for years. Try just enjoying shit. It won't hurt, I swear.

TBH it's a debate that started with accusatory ex cathedra statements about sports cars, so I'm trying to bring a contrary opinion.

I'm debating because I like it. It's not like all old sports cars were spartan - even some supercars had tons of kit.

[Novus America]

Last I heard, modern sports cars are about competence and speed. Manual uptake rates reflect this. You can go faster and do it more consistenly in a self shifting sports car, and the increased fuel economy is just an added bonus. And as far as comfortable and accommodating goes... I disagree. All cars regardless of purpose should have a modicum of comfort and usablility. Otherwise why would I drive it? If I'm buying any car, it'll be driven daily, and I won't find myself in a iron maiden, manual or not.

And honestly I question the feel of an old fashioned 5 speed. Since manual transmissions are often an after thought on modern cars, the manual transmission is a dog to use and enjoy half the time. Not every automaker is Honda, and not every automaker can be arsed to make a manual as good as Honda's...

The reasons for manual transmissions these days are more emotional than practical. The strides made with automatic transmissions really puts manuals at a disadvantage in everything but simplicity and price. Despite that I'll still have my next car as a manual simply because that's what I like. (should be harder to steal as well)

Performance cars aren't supposed to be practical.

In my opinion modern sports cars have gone too far from their roots, there aren't many I'd actually car a sports car, most are just grand tourers. They're too big, too heavy, too cushie. My heart goes to the more Spartan cars, no a/c, no heat, manual, rough ride, no electronics, just a sexy car that looks good, sounds good, and and is an event everytime you're behind the wheel. Modern cars in general have more in common with smartphone than an automobile.

This only works if you can buy (and store) multiple cars. And then the sport car gets little use.
Yes such an event can be fun from time to time but not all the time.

Depending on where you live a car without heat and AC is outright unsafe much of the year.

You can get modern performance and comfort.

[Elwher]

Dude, do you even have your license yet? You really gotta stop trying to lecture people who have been driving longer than you've been alive about what they want in a car.

I'm talkinga about money here. If you are spending a wad of cash on something, it better not be a one-trick pony.

Plus,complaining about things like infotainment is quite superficial, especially since sports cars historically weren't skimping on creature comforts.

If we are talking historically, you are mistaken. Look at the Jaguars like the 120/140 series, any MG, the Alfa Romeros of the post war era and you will find cramped cockpits, stiff seats, and at most a radio for entertainment. Many did not even include that, as driving the car was both entertaining and attention keeping enough.

[Cannot think of a name]

I'm talkinga about money here. If you are spending a wad of cash on something, it better not be a one-trick pony.

Plus,complaining about things like infotainment is quite superficial, especially since sports cars historically weren't skimping on creature comforts.

If we are talking historically, you are mistaken. Look at the Jaguars like the 120/140 series, any MG, the Alfa Romeros of the post war era and you will find cramped cockpits, stiff seats, and at most a radio for entertainment. Many did not even include that, as driving the car was both entertaining and attention keeping enough.

There's an old Tim Allen joke about when he took his old Mercedes in and joked to the German mechanic about a lack of a cup holder and the mechanic snapped back, "Maybe ve are more interested in driving zen you distracted Americans" or some shit like that.

[Novus America]

If we are talking historically, you are mistaken. Look at the Jaguars like the 120/140 series, any MG, the Alfa Romeros of the post war era and you will find cramped cockpits, stiff seats, and at most a radio for entertainment. Many did not even include that, as driving the car was both entertaining and attention keeping enough.

There's an old Tim Allen joke about when he took his old Mercedes in and joked to the German mechanic about a lack of a cup holder and the mechanic snapped back, "Maybe ve are more interested in driving zen you distracted Americans" or some shit like that.

Historically US and European cars often followed dramatically different design philosophies, although the differences have been reduced over time.

[Cannot think of a name]

There's an old Tim Allen joke about when he took his old Mercedes in and joked to the German mechanic about a lack of a cup holder and the mechanic snapped back, "Maybe ve are more interested in driving zen you distracted Americans" or some shit like that.

Historically US and European cars often followed dramatically different design philosophies, although the differences have been reduced over time.

I think it would look like a pea pod or something like that. Early on, flat radiator pre-war cars all look more or less samish, though even then the cars that Jaguar and Mercedes were making were dead sexy, but once they started shaping the cars we went in vastly different directions. As the world markets and design hegemony have become more dominant they're getting closer. Though now it's Europe making a bunch of SUVs like they was Americans.

[Petrolheadia]

I'm talkinga about money here. If you are spending a wad of cash on something, it better not be a one-trick pony.

Plus,complaining about things like infotainment is quite superficial, especially since sports cars historically weren't skimping on creature comforts.

If we are talking historically, you are mistaken. Look at the Jaguars like the 120/140 series, any MG, the Alfa Romeros of the post war era and you will find cramped cockpits, stiff seats, and at most a radio for entertainment. Many did not even include that, as driving the car was both entertaining and attention keeping enough.

European cars of these years also did not have much in the way of creature comforts.

Sure, the sports cars weren't quite personal luxury, but they had nothing to be ashamed of either.

[Cannot think of a name]

If we are talking historically, you are mistaken. Look at the Jaguars like the 120/140 series, any MG, the Alfa Romeros of the post war era and you will find cramped cockpits, stiff seats, and at most a radio for entertainment. Many did not even include that, as driving the car was both entertaining and attention keeping enough.

European cars of these years also did not have much in the way of creature comforts.

Sure, the sports cars weren't quite personal luxury, but they had nothing to be ashamed of either.

This was a time when luxury cars started having electric windows while some of the cars he's talking about had canvas inserts as half of the door.

[Petrolheadia]

European cars of these years also did not have much in the way of creature comforts.

Sure, the sports cars weren't quite personal luxury, but they had nothing to be ashamed of either.

This was a time when luxury cars started having electric windows while some of the cars he's talking about had canvas inserts as half of the door.

Key word - "started".

[NeoOasis]

I for one enjoy driving for extended periods of time in comfort. I'm willing to trade on hard performance if it means I get creature comforts like a radio, heating/AC, and seats that aren't designed for lego people.

I can certainly understand the attraction to older cars for their design and simplicity, but I personally see no reason to view modern cars with as much disdain as some people here. If you want to broil yourself alive in an Alabama summer while your Jagently XJ-Shadow overheats and geysers the coolant fluid, that's on you. If you want to scream in frustration at your factory nav system locking up for the 3rd time this commute... go for it. Not gonna judge. Be thrilled you even have a car, and be furious at a self driving future.

For me it isn't the car, but the drive that's important. For me to enjoy the drive and the views, I'd much rather have a reliable car I can take on the road. I can't enjoy anything when the car I own prevents me from doing so for whatever reason.

[Cannot think of a name]

This was a time when luxury cars started having electric windows while some of the cars he's talking about had canvas inserts as half of the door.

Key word - "started".

While a lot of sports cars had tents for doors. C'mon, man.

[NeoOasis]

Key word - "started".

While a lot of sports cars had tents for doors. C'mon, man.

Fast forward 60 years, and sports cars have real doors with real roofs, while the companies that made tent roofed cars have been bought out by the Germans or the Chinese. People desire more comfort, and they vote with their wallets... which really doesn't explain Ferrari or Maserati. Ah well, can't expect people to be brutally logically 100% of the time. Happily we often vote with our hearts leading automakers to keep making cars like the WRX or Miata.

[Cannot think of a name]

While a lot of sports cars had tents for doors. C'mon, man.

Fast forward 60 years, and sports cars have real doors with real roofs, while the companies that made tent roofed cars have been bought out by the Germans or the Chinese. People desire more comfort, and they vote with their wallets... which really doesn't explain Ferrari or Maserati. Ah well, can't expect people to be brutally logically 100% of the time. Happily we often vote with our hearts leading automakers to keep making cars like the WRX or Miata.

Or the 2019 Porsche Speedster that has straps for door handles.

Look, if there was a 'people want' there would be one car. But people want a bunch of different shit, so they make all kinds of cars. Including cars that still have tents for tops. Your logic isn't everyone's logic. Your wants isn't everyone's wants. That's what makes cars cool, there's something out there for everyone.

[NeoOasis]

Fast forward 60 years, and sports cars have real doors with real roofs, while the companies that made tent roofed cars have been bought out by the Germans or the Chinese. People desire more comfort, and they vote with their wallets... which really doesn't explain Ferrari or Maserati. Ah well, can't expect people to be brutally logically 100% of the time. Happily we often vote with our hearts leading automakers to keep making cars like the WRX or Miata.

Or the 2019 Porsche Speedster that has straps for door handles.

Look, if there was a 'people want' there would be one car. But people want a bunch of different shit, so they make all kinds of cars. Including cars that still have tents for tops. Your logic isn't everyone's logic. Your wants isn't everyone's wants. That's what makes cars cool, there's something out there for everyone.

Ah well, can't expect people to be brutally logically 100% of the time. Happily we often vote with our hearts leading automakers to keep making cars like the WRX or Miata.

I'm not disagreeing with you here. Also if I remember correctly even the Speedster still has plenty of creature comforts. I just think that a relentless drive for one answer can be pretty silly. That being said mass demand for at least the basics is quite nice. AC is one thing I will never ever go without. Give me straps for door handles and a tent for a roof. As long as I can keep cool in the summer, I'm interested.

[Cannot think of a name]

Or the 2019 Porsche Speedster that has straps for door handles.

Look, if there was a 'people want' there would be one car. But people want a bunch of different shit, so they make all kinds of cars. Including cars that still have tents for tops. Your logic isn't everyone's logic. Your wants isn't everyone's wants. That's what makes cars cool, there's something out there for everyone.

Ah well, can't expect people to be brutally logically 100% of the time. Happily we often vote with our hearts leading automakers to keep making cars like the WRX or Miata.

I'm not disagreeing with you here. Also if I remember correctly even the Speedster still has plenty of creature comforts. I just think that a relentless drive for one answer can be pretty silly. That being said mass demand for at least the basics is quite nice. AC is one thing I will never ever go without. Give me straps for door handles and a tent for a roof. As long as I can keep cool in the summer, I'm interested.

I don't even have roll down windows.

[NeoOasis]

I don't even have roll down windows.

Not gonna lie, but I do miss roll down windows as an option on cars. Electric windows are convenient, but the cheaper price and weight reduction of hand crank cannot be denied. Ah well, progress I suppose.

[Elwher]

I'm not disagreeing with you here. Also if I remember correctly even the Speedster still has plenty of creature comforts. I just think that a relentless drive for one answer can be pretty silly. That being said mass demand for at least the basics is quite nice. AC is one thing I will never ever go without. Give me straps for door handles and a tent for a roof. As long as I can keep cool in the summer, I'm interested.

I don't even have roll down windows.

Do you have electric or removable? Neither are roll down.

[Cannot think of a name]

I don't even have roll down windows.

Do you have electric or removable? Neither are roll down.

Two pieces of glass, one on a rail that slides back and forth:

[Elwher]

Do you have electric or removable? Neither are roll down.

Two pieces of glass, one on a rail that slides back and forth:

Very good - I had forgotten about that type.

[Petrolheadia]

I don't even have roll down windows.

Not gonna lie, but I do miss roll down windows as an option on cars. Electric windows are convenient, but the cheaper price and weight reduction of hand crank cannot be denied. Ah well, progress I suppose.

I don't, likely because I have rather recent experience with them.

[Auzkhia]

Baby Boomers are killing the sedan

I presented another statistic from carmax, and they report that the average age of a sedan owner is 37 years old, that's millennial right there. And, the average age of the new car buyer is 54, well in the boomer range.