The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[El-Amin Caliphate]

lmao Amin even argued it for me. Thanks, mate.

Argued what for you?

[Fity Face Mand]

The concept of Takfir in general really doesn't make sense to me. How are you supposed to judge other people on whether or not they're a muslim, when such a thing is between them and Allah (SWT)?

Yes, at the end of the day it belongs to Allah SWT. That doesn't mean that some Muslims do stuff that might take out of the fold of Al-Islam. For example, Bekteshi Shi'a Sufis believe that Allah SWT consists of 3 parts. Now wouldn't that take them out of the fold of Al-Islam? Alevis don't care during RamaDaan, wouldn't that take them out of the fold of Al-Islam?

Now, I consider such a thing to be wrong and a sin, but again, who are we to call others out on making sins? Plenty of muslims also commit sins, such as lying or slander, and we don't consider them to be kafir. Takfir is an individual person somehow assuming the authority to decree whether or not someone is a muslim based on an individual sin they may have committed, while simultaneously potentially not being aware of a person's good deeds. If there's an honest intent to correctly interpret the Qur'an and follow it in someone's heart, how can we consider them kafir?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yes, at the end of the day it belongs to Allah SWT. That doesn't mean that some Muslims do stuff that might take out of the fold of Al-Islam. For example, Bekteshi Shi'a Sufis believe that Allah SWT consists of 3 parts. Now wouldn't that take them out of the fold of Al-Islam? Alevis don't care during RamaDaan, wouldn't that take them out of the fold of Al-Islam?

Now, I consider such a thing to be wrong and a sin, but again, who are we to call others out on making sins? Plenty of muslims also commit sins, such as lying or slander, and we don't consider them to be kafir. Takfir is an individual person somehow assuming the authority to decree whether or not someone is a muslim based on an individual sin they may have committed, while simultaneously potentially not being aware of a person's good deeds. If there's an honest intent to correctly interpret the Qur'an and follow it in someone's heart, how can we consider them kafir?

Yeah, there are strict rules for takfir so that it doesn't get overused.

As for what those rules are exactly, I don't know.

[Fity Face Mand]

Now, I consider such a thing to be wrong and a sin, but again, who are we to call others out on making sins? Plenty of muslims also commit sins, such as lying or slander, and we don't consider them to be kafir. Takfir is an individual person somehow assuming the authority to decree whether or not someone is a muslim based on an individual sin they may have committed, while simultaneously potentially not being aware of a person's good deeds. If there's an honest intent to correctly interpret the Qur'an and follow it in someone's heart, how can we consider them kafir?

Yeah, there are strict rules for takfir so that it doesn't get overused.

As for what those rules are exactly, I don't know.

And those rules differ among sects.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

As for what those rules are exactly, I don't know.

And those rules differ among sects.

Well sects shouldn't exist in the 1st place soo....
And as for the differences, just use the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah to find out which has the best evidence.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

For something you don't like doing and Muslims shouldn't do much, you've done it like 5 times today alone lmao

5 times? Where?

Let's see... Ahmadis, Bakhtashis, Alevis, and Quranists. So, 4 not 5. Sorry. And that's just today. You've also done it against Nizaris and I'm sure other groups, too.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

And those rules differ among sects.

Well sects shouldn't exist in the 1st place soo....
And as for the differences, just use the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah to find out which has the best evidence.

Lol yes. Nondenominational Islam. Totally.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

5 times? Where?

Let's see... Ahmadis, Bakhtashis, Alevis, and Quranists. So, 4 not 5. Sorry. And that's just today. You've also done it against Nizaris and I'm sure other groups, too.

I didn't make takfir of Ahmadis.

[Fity Face Mand]

Well sects shouldn't exist in the 1st place soo....
And as for the differences, just use the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah to find out which has the best evidence.

The whole reason sects exist is due to difference of interpretation of what the Qur'an and the sunnah say.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well sects shouldn't exist in the 1st place soo....
And as for the differences, just use the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah to find out which has the best evidence.

The whole reason sects exist is due to difference of interpretation of what the Qur'an and the sunnah say.

Actually not fully. Because the 4 main madhaahib of Sunnism aren't considered sects. Hence we Muslims didn't have to divide ourselves like this just because we had different interpretations as long as they were still in line with the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.

[Fity Face Mand]

The whole reason sects exist is due to difference of interpretation of what the Qur'an and the sunnah say.

Actually not fully. Because the 4 main madhaahib of Sunnism aren't considered sects. Hence we Muslims didn't have to divide ourselves like this just because we had different interpretations as long as they were still in line with the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.

People have different interpretations of what's in line with the Qur'an and Sunnah in the first place.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Actually not fully. Because the 4 main madhaahib of Sunnism aren't considered sects. Hence we Muslims didn't have to divide ourselves like this just because we had different interpretations as long as they were still in line with the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah.

People have different interpretations of what's in line with the Qur'an and Sunnah in the first place.

Ok, and depending on what the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah say, their interpretations are right or wrong.

[Jolthig]

People have different interpretations of what's in line with the Qur'an and Sunnah in the first place.

Ok, and depending on what the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah say, they are right or wrong.

Yes, its true that Islam historically never had any sects when it first started nor according to Quran and sunnah are there any sects, but like political ideologies, people split over time sadly. Ahmadiyya is technically not a sect according to my founder, but a restoration of the true Islam. Although of course, judging by history, we are.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Ok, and depending on what the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah say, they are right or wrong.

Yes, its true that Islam historically never had any sects when it first started nor according to Quran and sunnah are there any sects, but like political ideologies, people split over time sadly. Ahmadiyya is technically not a sect according to my founder, but a restoration of the true Islam. Although of course, judging by history, we are.

Judging by history y'all aren't considering it didn't come up until around the 18th or 19th century.

[Fity Face Mand]

People have different interpretations of what's in line with the Qur'an and Sunnah in the first place.

Ok, and depending on what the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah say, their interpretations are right or wrong.

And people have different interpretations of what the Qur'an or Sunnah means, which makes it hard to go back to the exact same book we're interpreting differently to see who's correct.

[Jolthig]

Allah will judge us all in the end. Ameen.

[Samudera Darussalam]

Allah will judge us all in the end. Ameen.

Well said. Ameen.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Let's see... Ahmadis, Bakhtashis, Alevis, and Quranists. So, 4 not 5. Sorry. And that's just today. You've also done it against Nizaris and I'm sure other groups, too.

I didn't make takfir of Ahmadis.

"Yeah, don't put your eggs in 1 basket on that last part."

What did you mean by this then?

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Ok, and depending on what the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah say, they are right or wrong.

Islam historically never had any sects when it first started.

I mean, yeah. That's because it was whatever Muhammad spewed. It'd be a bit hard for him to argue with himself. But then immediately after he died, boom. Sects. It's just what happens.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I didn't make takfir of Ahmadis.

"Yeah, don't put your eggs in 1 basket on that last part."

What did you mean by this then?

That my view of Ahmadis as Muslim may change. Or at least my view of Jolthig being Muslim might change.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

"Yeah, don't put your eggs in 1 basket on that last part."

What did you mean by this then?

That my view of Ahmadis as Muslim may change. Or at least my view of Jolthig being Muslim might change.

Mhmm. So, not a takfir but more just the looming implication of takfir? Mkay.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That my view of Ahmadis as Muslim may change. Or at least my view of Jolthig being Muslim might change.

Mhmm. So, not a takfir but more just the looming implication of takfir? Mkay.

*Looming chance, but correct.

[Fity Face Mand]

Mhmm. So, not a takfir but more just the looming implication of takfir? Mkay.

*Looming chance, but correct.

...

[El-Amin Caliphate]

*Looming chance, but correct.

...

It means that idk if what Jolthig believes takes him out of the fold of Al-Islam. Like if it wasn't proven to him that Ahmadism is wrong then he's ok, but if it was, he understood the opponent's side, and still didn't give up Ahmadism, then I'll see what I can do.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

In other words, Jolthig, I want to debate Ahmadiyyah if you're up to it.