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The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What denomination of Islam are you part of?

Sunni Islam
108
32%
Sunni Islam (Salafism)
12
4%
Shia Islam
24
7%
Quranist
9
3%
Ahmadiyya
4
1%
Zaydi
7
2%
Ibadist
4
1%
Sufism
19
6%
I do not ascribe to any sect, just call me a Muslim
58
17%
Other
92
27%
 
Total votes : 337

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Hindia Belanda
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Postby Hindia Belanda » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:53 pm

The Eternal Aulus wrote:
Gutulia wrote:-snip-

Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?

I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.

Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.

Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.

If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:58 pm

Hindia Belanda wrote:
The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?

I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.

Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.

Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.

If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.

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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:20 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Well, for one, I dont hold the Biblical view of God. Rather, the view of the Quran which places a lot for emphasis on the Oneness of God than the Bible does which the bible has quite inconsistent views on God indeed.

So does the Quran.

Such as?
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Negarakita
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Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:21 pm

Hindia Belanda wrote:
The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?

I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.

Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting The illegal state of Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.

Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.

If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.

That's really interesting because I'd got the opposite idea from what I'd read
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The Eternal Aulus
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Postby The Eternal Aulus » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:24 pm

Hindia Belanda wrote:
The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?

I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.

Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.

Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.

If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.

I see, are there any organizations which can cause problems/trouble in the (Islamic) community in Indonesia? What about the 212 Movement?
Last edited by The Eternal Aulus on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:29 pm

Hindia Belanda wrote:
The Eternal Aulus wrote:Very interesting. Is there any Indonesian Islamic organization that you think will cause trouble in the Islamic community to come? With that I mean an organization which goes against mainstream opinion or is too ''liberal'' or ''conservative'' for the average Muslim in Indonesia?

I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.

Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.

Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.

If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.


yes, I agree with you, Hindia Belanda. My opinion about the views of the Indonesian peoples about the daily worship of these organizations. But I am sure these two organizations will not cause problems. because Islam is here to solve human problems.
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:38 pm

The Eternal Aulus wrote:
Hindia Belanda wrote:I thought I'd chime in to this discussion. The difference between those two organisations actually goes beyond the minor ritualistic differences that Gutlia mentioned.

Nadlatul Ulama (the largest muslim organisation there) was established mostly as a response to the rise of Wahhabism in Indonesia and growing intolerance for local indigenous beliefs, like seeking karamat at the graves of saints and observing certain kejawen practices of the Yogyakarta Sultan’s court (to name a few, all of which AFAIK the Muhammadiyah sees as shirk). They’re historically traditionalists in the sense that they cling to the mystical form of Islam (tasawwuf) which was dominant during the early years of Islam in Indonesia. In recent years, though, certain figures within their leadership have earned criticisms from the more conservative Muslims there, most recently for visiting Israel and breaking bread during pesach with the rabbi of Jakarta.

Muhammadiyah, IMO, is more conservative in some aspects than the Nadlatul Ulama. When their founder died in the 1920s, a vacuum was left in the Muhammadiyah and it was filled by returning scholars from Mecca/Medina who studied under Wahhabi preachers. They oppose (sometimes strongly) local indigenous beliefs and aren't that tolerant of mystical Islam (tasawwuf). They instead favour “pure Islam” and want to rid Indonesia of its local beliefs.

If you ask me, I’m more supportive of the Nadlatul Ulama (I'm not very fond of Muhammadiyah tbh), but I suspect none of these organisations will cause trouble in the Islamic community there.

I see, are there any organizations which can cause problems/trouble in the (Islamic) community in Indonesia? What about the 212 Movement?

I think only few a bit radical likes FPI (Islamic defence front), Hizbut Tahrir (but was banned by the government for their activities because aims to turn the Indonesian republic state into a caliphate system.

212 movement can be said as momentary religious movement due to insulting the Qur'an and not organizations like Nahdlatul Ulama or Muhammadiyah. But after that, the 212 movement looks more towards the political movement because it supports one of the Indonesian president candidates.

News articles about HTI (Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia)
212 Movement with elements of politic
Last edited by Gutulia on Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Negarakita
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Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 pm

Gutulia wrote:
The Eternal Aulus wrote:I see, are there any organizations which can cause problems/trouble in the (Islamic) community in Indonesia? What about the 212 Movement?

I think only few a bit radical likes FPI (Islamic defence front), Hizbut Tahrir (but was banned by the government for their activities because aims to turn the Indonesian republic state into a caliphate system.

212 movement can be said as momentary religious movement due to insulting the Qur'an and not organizations like Nahdlatul Ulama or Muhammadiyah. But after that, the 212 movement looks more towards the political movement because it supports one of the Indonesian president candidates.

News articles about HTI (Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia)
212 Movement with elements of politic

Plus JI.
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to Belgium next year, so Belgians any advice (especially about school stuff) would be greatly appreciated.
Considering Islam, esp Muhamaddiyah. Unironic Turanist. Big Erdogan fan. Jokowi >>>>>>> Prabowo.
“Seeing to the welfare of people is more effective than the use of force. It has been said that the crown of a leader is his integrity, his stronghold is his impartiality and his wealth is the welfare of his people.” ― Muhammadu Sa’adu Abubakar III, Sultan of Sokoto
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Hindia Belanda
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Postby Hindia Belanda » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:05 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Hindia Belanda wrote:-snip-

That's really interesting because I'd got the opposite idea from what I'd read

I mean, Muhammadiyah nowadays aren't as puritan as they used to be, but they're still more conservative compared to the NU. They were shaped by Wahhabi Salafism in their formative years after all.

The Eternal Aulus wrote:I see, are there any organizations which can cause problems/trouble in the (Islamic) community in Indonesia? What about the 212 Movement?

Perhaps the Islamic Defenders Front. They've caused a lot of troubles there but I don't think they exert enough influence to really cause major problems y’know? In any case, they're still a big fucking nuisance imo :P

There are also some Islamic institutions there that continue to receive funding from the Saudis. I guess they’re the ones Indonesia needs to keep an eye on. An Indonesian youtuber made a video exposing some of these institutions in Indonesia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJJI54JVCoc

And I'm not really familiar with the 212 movement, but from what I've heard from my Indonesian relatives they're a pretty troublesome folk. The leader of the Islamic Defenders Front AFAIK had a hand in the creation of the 212 movement.
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:27 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Gutulia wrote:I think only few a bit radical likes FPI (Islamic defence front), Hizbut Tahrir (but was banned by the government for their activities because aims to turn the Indonesian republic state into a caliphate system.

212 movement can be said as momentary religious movement due to insulting the Qur'an and not organizations like Nahdlatul Ulama or Muhammadiyah. But after that, the 212 movement looks more towards the political movement because it supports one of the Indonesian president candidates.

News articles about HTI (Hizbut Tahrir Indonesia)
212 Movement with elements of politic

Plus JI.

What is Jl ?
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Negarakita
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Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:55 pm

Gutulia wrote:
Negarakita wrote:Plus JI.

What is Jl ?

Jemaat Islaamiyah
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to Belgium next year, so Belgians any advice (especially about school stuff) would be greatly appreciated.
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“Seeing to the welfare of people is more effective than the use of force. It has been said that the crown of a leader is his integrity, his stronghold is his impartiality and his wealth is the welfare of his people.” ― Muhammadu Sa’adu Abubakar III, Sultan of Sokoto
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:17 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Gutulia wrote:What is Jl ?

Jemaat Islaamiyah

That also banned by government as terrorist group than religious organization
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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:58 pm

Hindia Belanda wrote:
Negarakita wrote:That's really interesting because I'd got the opposite idea from what I'd read

I mean, Muhammadiyah nowadays aren't as puritan as they used to be, but they're still more conservative compared to the NU. They were shaped by Wahhabi Salafism in their formative years after all.

I agree. I used to study in Muhammadiyah schools for nine years and compared to the NU, they are relatively more conservative in their religious beliefs. It's founder, K.H. Ahmad Dahlan, was educated in Mecca, so it's not really weird.

Historically, Muhammadiyah played a remarkable role for education in Indonesia as they are the first, if not one of the first, to establish native schools that combine formal western education with Islamic studies. If I remember correctly, the first Muhammadiyah school is established to provide formal 'western' education combined with Islamic studies to the Bumiputera communities and as a response to Christianization, that they believe occured in Dutch schools.
Last edited by Samudera Darussalam on Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Negarakita
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Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:58 pm

Gutulia wrote:
Negarakita wrote:Jemaat Islaamiyah

That also banned by government as terrorist group than religious organization

I know, but they are an Islamic group causing problems
Proud Member of the Western Isles as Suvurnia. I was Bhikkustan. Speak French (B2 DELF). Unemployed Latin Scholar. I'm going on an AFS exchange to Belgium next year, so Belgians any advice (especially about school stuff) would be greatly appreciated.
Considering Islam, esp Muhamaddiyah. Unironic Turanist. Big Erdogan fan. Jokowi >>>>>>> Prabowo.
“Seeing to the welfare of people is more effective than the use of force. It has been said that the crown of a leader is his integrity, his stronghold is his impartiality and his wealth is the welfare of his people.” ― Muhammadu Sa’adu Abubakar III, Sultan of Sokoto
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:12 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Gutulia wrote:That also banned by government as terrorist group than religious organization

I know, but they are an Islamic group causing problems

I see Muhammadiya has some similarities with Ahmadiyya. :p
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:14 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Negarakita wrote:I know, but they are an Islamic group causing problems

I see Muhammadiya has some similarities with Ahmadiyya. :p

I doubt this a lot.
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:15 pm

Negarakita wrote:
Gutulia wrote:That also banned by government as terrorist group than religious organization

I know, but they are an Islamic group causing problems

No, a terrorist not Islam even though he uses Islamic attributes. they are only peoples who abuse Islamic teachings
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:16 pm

Tbh Muhammadiyyah sounds pretty cool. I just don't feel comfortable with their strong use of ijtihad and rejection of 'ulama.
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Gutulia
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Postby Gutulia » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:17 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Negarakita wrote:I know, but they are an Islamic group causing problems

I see Muhammadiya has some similarities with Ahmadiyya. :p

I don't know about that but Muhammadiyah likes salafi. Muhammadiyah name means the followers of Muhammad prophet (Nabi Muhammad)
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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Tbh Muhammadiyyah sounds pretty cool. I just don't feel comfortable with their strong use of ijtihad and rejection of 'ulama.

Eh, well, Muhammadiyah indeed use and support the use of ijtihad to solve problems. However, back when I was a student there they taught us that "the Quran comes first, then the Hadith/Sunnah, and the last ijtihad" as a consideration to make decisions. I don't know about the practice tho.
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Benuty wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Anyone still believes a two date solution is possible?

The Holy Land screwed.

I don't want to imagine some Israel x Palestine Hetalia fan fic thank you.

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:36 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Tbh Muhammadiyyah sounds pretty cool. I just don't feel comfortable with their strong use of ijtihad and rejection of 'ulama.

Eh, well, Muhammadiyah indeed use and support the use of ijtihad to solve problems. However, back when I was a student there they taught us that "the Quran comes first, then the Hadith/Sunnah, and the last ijtihad" as a consideration to make decisions. I don't know about the practice tho.

Oh ok, that's cool of them. What are their views of 'ulama?
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Negarakita
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Postby Negarakita » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:45 pm

My impression of them seems like a kinda "liberal salafism" where theyre very against a lot of supersition and innovation while at the time having several reformist views.
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Samudera Darussalam
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:46 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh ok, that's cool of them. What are their views of 'ulama?

Just like other mainstream Muslim communities I think, they respect them (the 'ulama) and follow their ruling and jurisdiction about Islam in general. Muhammadiyah has several 'ulama affiliated to them, just like NU.
Embassy Link - This is closed for a while.



Benuty wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Anyone still believes a two date solution is possible?

The Holy Land screwed.

I don't want to imagine some Israel x Palestine Hetalia fan fic thank you.

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:55 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Oh ok, that's cool of them. What are their views of 'ulama?

Just like other mainstream Muslim communities I think, they respect them (the 'ulama) and follow their ruling and jurisdiction about Islam in general. Muhammadiyah has several 'ulama affiliated to them, just like NU.

Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)
Kubumba Tribe's sister nation. NOT A PUPPET! >w< In fact, this one came 1st.
Proud Full Member of the Council of Islamic Cooperation!^u^
I'm a (Pan) Islamist ;)
Scroll down to The Archregimancy's post. This means we can use the word, just not in a bad way. So don't ban anyone who uses kafir.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:58 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Samudera Darussalam wrote:Just like other mainstream Muslim communities I think, they respect them (the 'ulama) and follow their ruling and jurisdiction about Islam in general. Muhammadiyah has several 'ulama affiliated to them, just like NU.

Oh, well I guess wiki was wrong. Muhammadiyyah is based :)

Wikipedia is where I based my earlier comparison as well.
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