The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Herskerstad]

I have to say, this is a more interesting discussion than all the drama of the last two days.

If we could keep the level of drama down and the level of discussion up that'd be fantastic.

That said:

While I agree with generally being a united front in the Middle East, I don't think you guys would have much luck with it. To do so would imply giving up national autonomy and sovereignty, and there's many interests in the region that are not for giving up their comfy positions, so far as I am aware.

Yeah, there is a good chance language barriers and barriers of intentions were misunderstood. People get heated. Dumb things get said. Petty drama ensues. But I do believe mercy and morals ultimately bring people closer than further apart and this thread should embody such.

That being said you are quite right. The regions is entranched in heavy political bickering and uprooting such and unifying thousands of rivallries would be either extremely difficult if not fully impossible. How would you propose one does that?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I have to say, this is a more interesting discussion than all the drama of the last two days.

If we could keep the level of drama down and the level of discussion up that'd be fantastic.

That said:

While I agree with generally being a united front in the Middle East, I don't think you guys would have much luck with it. To do so would imply giving up national autonomy and sovereignty, and there's many interests in the region that are not for giving up their comfy positions, so far as I am aware.

Yeah, there is a good chance language barriers and barriers of intentions were misunderstood. People get heated. Dumb things get said. Petty drama ensues. But I do believe mercy and morals ultimately bring people closer than further apart and this thread should embody such.

That being said you are quite right. The regions is entranched in heavy political bickering and uprooting such and unifying thousands of rivallries would be either extremely difficult if not fully impossible. How would you propose one does that?

By using the teachings of Allah SWT and the Prophet Muhammad SAWS, that's a start.

[Herskerstad]

Yeah, there is a good chance language barriers and barriers of intentions were misunderstood. People get heated. Dumb things get said. Petty drama ensues. But I do believe mercy and morals ultimately bring people closer than further apart and this thread should embody such.

That being said you are quite right. The regions is entranched in heavy political bickering and uprooting such and unifying thousands of rivallries would be either extremely difficult if not fully impossible. How would you propose one does that?

By using the teachings of Allah SWT and the Prophet Muhammad SAWS, that's a start.

Alright, but even if regionalism and competing schools on the issue somehow got merged and unified, which itself is one hell of an undertaking, how would that transcripe to political realities which is more related to power games and where the figures on top rarely wish to give such up? Confederations could fracture things up real quick.

[Jolthig]

I have to say, this is a more interesting discussion than all the drama of the last two days.

If we could keep the level of drama down and the level of discussion up that'd be fantastic.

That said:

There is power politicking and divisions but everyone would benefit from being an unstoppable unified block.

It would be the biggest country,
the biggest oil producer, have the biggest army
and also no ethnic
group would be the majority so it would be hard to be racist.

Furthermore It wouldn't mean a Calpih
made each and every decision.

I would have it like the USA in one sense at least:
The Caliph being the President, the
Majilis E Shura Al Khalifah
being the House of Representatives,
a group of Ulema
acting as the Supreme Court
but also various states like Palestine, Libya,
Egypt and Syria
Saudi Arabia, Pakistan(including Kashmir, Pakistan basically meaning the Muslim majority nations of the Indian sub-continent with the exception of nations I mention elsewhere)
Afghanistan, Bosnia, Malaysia, Indonesia, Iraq, Iran,
Yemen, Emirati Arabia, Oman, Morocco, Algeria,
Chechnya, Kazakhstan, Turkey, Lebanon,
Somalia, Nigeria, the Maldives, Brunei, Rohingya State(
Land taken from the Burmese government and /or army used to establish a state)
and Marituania.

Each state will have it's own Shurta(police) and military regiments. They may also have their own official languages with Arabic as the Caliphate lingua franca/

They will all pledge allegiance to the Office of the Caliph.
They will share wealth and
the glory and burdens of war.

They would be a super-power under this model at least in about 20 years.

While I agree with generally being a united front in the Middle East, I don't think you guys would have much luck with it. To do so would imply giving up national autonomy and sovereignty, and there's many interests in the region that are not for giving up their comfy positions, so far as I am aware.

I agree with you that there's a lot of drama in here. This is why my community does interfaith dialogue a lot. I also do that.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I have to say, this is a more interesting discussion than all the drama of the last two days.

If we could keep the level of drama down and the level of discussion up that'd be fantastic.

That said:

While I agree with generally being a united front in the Middle East, I don't think you guys would have much luck with it. To do so would imply giving up national autonomy and sovereignty, and there's many interests in the region that are not for giving up their comfy positions, so far as I am aware.

Yeah, there is a good chance language barriers and barriers of intentions were misunderstood. People get heated. Dumb things get said. Petty drama ensues. But I do believe mercy and morals ultimately bring people closer than further apart and this thread should embody such.

That being said you are quite right. The regions is entranched in heavy political bickering and uprooting such and unifying thousands of rivallries would be either extremely difficult if not fully impossible. How would you propose one does that?

Quite, for the above. The thread is better off that way.

On the issue of the regional politics, I would guess war is one way to deal with the issue, war and integration into the Caliph, which is more or less what ISIS' radical mentality was, but failed. The other proposition would be a supraorganization of sorts like the EU agreed upon by the Muslim world to deal with Muslim affairs and given the power of such.

Actually, an EU institution for the Muslim world would be a good idea, but everyone would have to agree to give up some of their autonomy for the unification of the Muslim world as a whole, but it is also the most peaceful resolution.

[Saranidia]

Yeah, there is a good chance language barriers and barriers of intentions were misunderstood. People get heated. Dumb things get said. Petty drama ensues. But I do believe mercy and morals ultimately bring people closer than further apart and this thread should embody such.

That being said you are quite right. The regions is entranched in heavy political bickering and uprooting such and unifying thousands of rivallries would be either extremely difficult if not fully impossible. How would you propose one does that?

Quite, for the above. The thread is better off that way.

On the issue of the regional politics, I would guess war is one way to deal with the issue, war and integration into the Caliph, which is more or less what ISIS' radical mentality was, but failed. The other proposition would be a supraorganization of sorts like the EU agreed upon by the Muslim world to deal with Muslim affairs and given the power of such.

Actually, an EU institution for the Muslim world would be a good idea, but everyone would have to agree to give up some of their autonomy for the unification of the Muslim world as a whole, but it is also the most peaceful resolution.

You're a great man.

[Herskerstad]

Quite, for the above. The thread is better off that way.

On the issue of the regional politics, I would guess war is one way to deal with the issue, war and integration into the Caliph, which is more or less what ISIS' radical mentality was, but failed. The other proposition would be a supraorganization of sorts like the EU agreed upon by the Muslim world to deal with Muslim affairs and given the power of such.

Actually, an EU institution for the Muslim world would be a good idea, but everyone would have to agree to give up some of their autonomy for the unification of the Muslim world as a whole, but it is also the most peaceful resolution.

You're a great man.

Yeah, and if there was a misunderstanding between us. I apologize, and I apologize for getting heated and calling you a bad name. I just got heated over the implications and did not realise what you intended to communicate.

But if the muslim world was to adopt an EU model, which nation do you think should be the Brussels of the it? (IE the capital of the union)

[Izaakia]

You're a great man.

Yeah, and if there was a misunderstanding between us. I apologize, and I apologize for getting heated and calling you a bad name. I just got heated over the implications and did not realise what you intended to communicate.

But if the muslim world was to adopt an EU model, which nation do you think should be the Brussels of the it? (IE the capital of the union)

Jordan! That’s my suggestion, central, stable, liberalish.

Arab Union could work, they’re culturally more homogenous than Europe, which is the reason why the EU never works, and we’re brexiting.

[Herskerstad]

Yeah, and if there was a misunderstanding between us. I apologize, and I apologize for getting heated and calling you a bad name. I just got heated over the implications and did not realise what you intended to communicate.

But if the muslim world was to adopt an EU model, which nation do you think should be the Brussels of the it? (IE the capital of the union)

Jordan! That’s my suggestion, central, stable, liberalish.

Arab Union could work, they’re culturally more homogenous than Europe, which is the reason why the EU never works, and we’re brexiting.

I just wonder how it would work with some of the regional rivalries, since those wounds would take long to heal, but a stable middle east with a unified look would probably be much better for the world than the troubles that's been made there.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Same as Herk, I do apologize if there were any misunderstandings, and I apologize for being a bit harsh a while back.

That said an Arab Union could work, and the regional rivalries would have to be ironed out for sure, but it could work.

[Herskerstad]

Same as Herk, I do apologize if there were any misunderstandings, and I apologize for being a bit harsh a while back.

That said an Arab Union could work, and the regional rivalries would have to be ironed out for sure, but it could work.

It would take a lot of time, think that much good will could be mustered if the west would aid rather than fragment the effort?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Quite, for the above. The thread is better off that way.

On the issue of the regional politics, I would guess war is one way to deal with the issue, war and integration into the Caliph, which is more or less what ISIS' radical mentality was, but failed. The other proposition would be a supraorganization of sorts like the EU agreed upon by the Muslim world to deal with Muslim affairs and given the power of such.

Actually, an EU institution for the Muslim world would be a good idea, but everyone would have to agree to give up some of their autonomy for the unification of the Muslim world as a whole, but it is also the most peaceful resolution.

You're a great man.

Well I'm just glad you, me, Herk and the rest on this thread solved this particular incident. I do realize that in NSG things can get heated sometimes but we usually do our best discussions when we get back togheter, forgive and forget mishaps, and grow stronger friendships.

Same as Herk, I do apologize if there were any misunderstandings, and I apologize for being a bit harsh a while back.

That said an Arab Union could work, and the regional rivalries would have to be ironed out for sure, but it could work.

It would take a lot of time, think that much good will could be mustered if the west would aid rather than fragment the effort?

Well, if we aid on the effort, perhaps we can do it, as can be seen in this thread, good things happen with patience and understanding, so I would presume that, if the West can get past the discord with the Muslim world, then perhaps we can do it.

[Jolthig]

Finally this thread is going somewhere. Good work, guys.

I highly suggest you all look into what we of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community do. You can check out the links in my signature. Especially the true Islam campaign.

[Dahyan]

A much bigger issue in founding this Caliphate you are all talking about, much more profound than national and ethnic distinctions, is the inherent differences between Islamic schools of thought.

For example, Twelver Shias will never accept a Caliph to begin with, as their Twelfth Imam is still in Occulation according to their creed. They can and will not accept any other Caliph.
Similarly, us Zaydis will not accept a Caliph that does not meet the necessary requirements for the Imamate, chief amongst which are being a Sayyid of morally upstanding character who is democratically elected.

[Al-Zalaam]

A much bigger issue in founding this Caliphate you are all talking about, much more profound than national and ethnic distinctions, is the inherent differences between Islamic schools of thought.

For example, Twelver Shias will never accept a Caliph to begin with, as their Twelfth Imam is still in Occulation according to their creed. They can and will not accept any other Caliph.
Similarly, us Zaydis will not accept a Caliph that does not meet the necessary requirements for the Imamate, chief amongst which are being a Sayyid of morally upstanding character who is democratically elected.

We need a Caliphate though.

Look at how divided we are.

[Dahyan]

A much bigger issue in founding this Caliphate you are all talking about, much more profound than national and ethnic distinctions, is the inherent differences between Islamic schools of thought.

For example, Twelver Shias will never accept a Caliph to begin with, as their Twelfth Imam is still in Occulation according to their creed. They can and will not accept any other Caliph.
Similarly, us Zaydis will not accept a Caliph that does not meet the necessary requirements for the Imamate, chief amongst which are being a Sayyid of morally upstanding character who is democratically elected.

We need a Caliphate though.

Look at how divided we are.

The Sunni world could definitely use a Caliph, since Sunni Islam has really suffered since the last Caliphate was abolished. But the Shia community, as well as for example the Zaydis, have done without a Caliphate for centuries.

[Negarakita]

Plus the Ibadi, who ngl I really like, don't believe in anything like that

[Saranidia]

A much bigger issue in founding this Caliphate you are all talking about, much more profound than national and ethnic distinctions, is the inherent differences between Islamic schools of thought.

For example, Twelver Shias will never accept a Caliph to begin with, as their Twelfth Imam is still in Occulation according to their creed. They can and will not accept any other Caliph.
Similarly, us Zaydis will not accept a Caliph that does not meet the necessary requirements for the Imamate, chief amongst which are being a Sayyid of morally upstanding character who is democratically elected.

I believe in elections for Caliph as well.
In practice Caliphs- Sunni or Shia- would be Sayyids as otherwise they wouldn't get any of the Shia vote.
Also Islamic royal, political and theological families would disproportionately by Sayyids.

[Izaakia]

I find it amusing that anyone believes the formation of a caliphate would be allowed. It’s too dangerous of a concept to be accepted by any of the worlds major powers.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I find it amusing that anyone believes the formation of a caliphate would be allowed. It’s too dangerous of a concept to be accepted by any of the worlds major powers.

We seek to please Allah, not ahlul kufr. If they wanna fight, we'll fight them.

[Izaakia]

I find it amusing that anyone believes the formation of a caliphate would be allowed. It’s too dangerous of a concept to be accepted by any of the worlds major powers.

We seek to please Allah, not ahlul kufr. If they wanna fight, we'll fight them.

And you will lose. Let’s face it, arab militaries are famous for a lack of willingness to actually engage in combat. For example in iraq, when isis struck 70% of the army had bribed their officers into taking unofficial leave.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

We seek to please Allah, not ahlul kufr. If they wanna fight, we'll fight them.

And you will lose. Let’s face it, arab militaries are famous for a lack of willingness to actually engage in combat. For example in iraq, when isis struck 70% of the army had bribed their officers into taking unofficial leave.

What makes you think only Arab militaries can fight? And only Allah SWT knows what will happen.

[Izaakia]

And you will lose. Let’s face it, arab militaries are famous for a lack of willingness to actually engage in combat. For example in iraq, when isis struck 70% of the army had bribed their officers into taking unofficial leave.

What makes you think only Arab militaries can fight? And only Allah SWT knows what will happen.

They can’t fight, if they could they might have won atleast one war against Israel.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

What makes you think only Arab militaries can fight? And only Allah SWT knows what will happen.

They can’t fight

If so, then why's ISIS almost dead?

[Sahansahiye Iran]

They can’t fight

If so, then why's ISIS almost dead?

Massive amounts of funding and support from the West?