The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Dahyan]

Alhamdulillah. It seems like many of us on the forums are reverts.

Alsheb habiby pls send zaydi links I wanna learn about it.

At the moment I have no sources handy, but I'll send some to you asap, akhi.

[Saranidia]

Roman slavery was worse in my opinion since I remember reading anyone could rape a slave provided they didn't "damage the goods". In contrast Islam forbids slaves being forced into prostitution in Quran 24:33

And we can't rape slaves nor mistreat them in any way.

Indeed, every Muslim scholar I have heard of seemed to promote chivalry which included protectiveness of women. Also Islam promotes chivalry Quran 28:24 mentions Moses helping women out of protectiveness.

[Izaakia]

No, you're talking about an economic system of wealth that has, historically speaking, been worse than anything comparable to it in other cultures at any time. It was worse than other types of slavery (i.e. Roman slavery) back during your founder's time, it was worse than other types of slavery (i.e. European serfdom, chattel slavery) during the Caliphates and early Ottomans, it was worse than other types of slavery (i.e. Trans-Atlantic Slavery) during late Ottomans, and it was only abolished recently (as recently as 1980) because non-Muslims knew better and forced you to.
Does it really matter what you are or aren't talking about? No. No it does not.

Roman slavery was worse in my opinion since I remember reading anyone could rape a slave provided they didn't "damage the goods". In contrast Islam forbids slaves being forced into prostitution in Quran 24:33

Knowing what Islamic countries are like, they’d probably stone the slave girl as an adulterer if she was raped.

[Frievolk]

Roman slavery was worse in my opinion since I remember reading anyone could rape a slave provided they didn't "damage the goods". In contrast Islam forbids slaves being forced into prostitution in Quran 24:33

Knowing what Islamic countries are like, they’d probably stone the slave girl as an adulterer if she was raped.

(They actually did do that. And do do that. Well, not to slaves, since, you know, those damn kafirun oppressed them by banning slavery)

[Izaakia]

Knowing what Islamic countries are like, they’d probably stone the slave girl as an adulterer if she was raped.

(They actually did do that. And do do that. Well, not to slaves, since, you know, those damn kafirun oppressed them by banning slavery)

OMG! It’s almost as if they systematically and consistently discriminate against women like they’re second class citizens.

[Saranidia]

Roman slavery was worse in my opinion since I remember reading anyone could rape a slave provided they didn't "damage the goods". In contrast Islam forbids slaves being forced into prostitution in Quran 24:33

Knowing what Islamic countries are like, they’d probably stone the slave girl as an adulterer if she was raped.

I know of no scholar supporting stoning if lack of consent can be proven.

[Saranidia]

(They actually did do that. And do do that. Well, not to slaves, since, you know, those damn kafirun oppressed them by banning slavery)

OMG! It’s almost as if they systematically and consistently discriminate against women like they’re second class citizens.

If you live in Europe someone on here could report you for hate speech.
I feel like reporting you and Frievolk to the NS admins.

[Frievolk]

Knowing what Islamic countries are like, they’d probably stone the slave girl as an adulterer if she was raped.

I know of no scholar supporting stoning if lack of consent can be proven.

I know of at least five Shia scholars that opined thus regarding heterosexual rape, and at least 10 that opined thus regarding homosexual rape. And a penal code that was derived from one of those 5 and 10 opinions.

[Izaakia]

Knowing what Islamic countries are like, they’d probably stone the slave girl as an adulterer if she was raped.

I know of no scholar supporting stoning if lack of consent can be proven.

Scholars or not, it happens. Scholars mean bugger all if it doesn’t reflect the reality.

[Izaakia]

OMG! It’s almost as if they systematically and consistently discriminate against women like they’re second class citizens.

If you live in Europe someone on here could report you for hate speech.
I feel like reporting you and Frievolk to the NS admins.

You’d report someone for accurately representing the current situation?

[Saranidia]

If you live in Europe someone on here could report you for hate speech.
I feel like reporting you and Frievolk to the NS admins.

You’d report someone for accurately representing the current situation?

You said "they" without numbers or names and didn't cite your sources. the impartial pursuit of truth therefore does not seem to be your aim.

[Izaakia]

Saudi Arabia
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ition-king

Iran
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1131193002

Turkey
http://hir.harvard.edu/blog/jasmine-ome ... -in-turkey

Egypt
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... ht-to-work

It’s the same story across every Muslim nation.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Saudi Arabia
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ition-king

Iran
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1131193002

Turkey
http://hir.harvard.edu/blog/jasmine-ome ... -in-turkey

Egypt
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... ht-to-work

It’s the same story across every Muslim nation.

Yes, Muslim-majority nations' govs are DHaalimoon (wrongdoers).
In other news, the sky is blue and sometimes has clouds.

[Izaakia]

Saudi Arabia
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ition-king

Iran
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1131193002

Turkey
http://hir.harvard.edu/blog/jasmine-ome ... -in-turkey

Egypt
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... ht-to-work

It’s the same story across every Muslim nation.

Yes, Muslim-majority nations' govs are DHaalimoon (wrongdoers).
In other news, the sky is blue and sometimes has clouds.

And anyone with any sense of decency would be unhappy about that, not dismiss it.

[Frievolk]

Saudi Arabia
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ition-king

Iran
https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/1131193002

Turkey
http://hir.harvard.edu/blog/jasmine-ome ... -in-turkey

Egypt
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-des ... ht-to-work

It’s the same story across every Muslim nation.

Yes, Muslim-majority nations' govs are DHaalimoon (wrongdoers).
In other news, the sky is blue and sometimes has clouds.

Ironic that every single Muslim country in human history, including Muhammad's Caliphate, have horrible second-class citizenship for women, the People of the book, etc, hmm?
I'm sure they're all at fault and Islam is innocent. I wonder, how many times do we need to give Islam grace before we decide "so maybe this religion is just problematic" like we did with fascism?

[Jolthig]

Yes, Muslim-majority nations' govs are DHaalimoon (wrongdoers).
In other news, the sky is blue and sometimes has clouds.

Ironic that every single Muslim country in human history, including Muhammad's Caliphate, have horrible second-class citizenship for women, the People of the book, etc, hmm?
I'm sure they're all at fault and Islam is innocent. I wonder, how many times do we need to give Islam grace before we decide "so maybe this religion is just problematic" like we did with fascism?

And exactly how did Muhammad treat women as "second class"?

[USS Monitor]

OMG! It’s almost as if they systematically and consistently discriminate against women like they’re second class citizens.

If you live in Europe someone on here could report you for hate speech.
I feel like reporting you and Frievolk to the NS admins.

Enough of this stuff about reporting people to authorities, whether RL or NS. You've taken it too far and it is not funny when you keep doing it.

*** Warned for mods as weapons ***

[Frievolk]

Ironic that every single Muslim country in human history, including Muhammad's Caliphate, have horrible second-class citizenship for women, the People of the book, etc, hmm?
I'm sure they're all at fault and Islam is innocent. I wonder, how many times do we need to give Islam grace before we decide "so maybe this religion is just problematic" like we did with fascism?

And exactly how did Muhammad treat women as "second class"?

Seriously, Jolthig? I respect you as a fellow roamer of the NS, and see you as a friend, but we've been through this a lot of times. I've brought my arguments, you've brought yours. We disagreed with each other every time, in this case (I notice you didn't deny the "People of the book" thing, of course).
Do you really want us to get into the argument again, and end up with an agree to disagree situation, again?

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=34897437#p34897437

[Saranidia]

Yes, Muslim-majority nations' govs are DHaalimoon (wrongdoers).
In other news, the sky is blue and sometimes has clouds.

Ironic that every single Muslim country in human history, including Muhammad's Caliphate, have horrible second-class citizenship for women, the People of the book, etc, hmm?
I'm sure they're all at fault and Islam is innocent. I wonder, how many times do we need to give Islam grace before we decide "so maybe this religion is just problematic" like we did with fascism?

Fascism is by definition evil.

Also I believe Muhammad said when a rapist was killed in self-defence "there is no diyyah for this man" in other words not even compensation should be given for the life of a rapist killed by an innocent woman in self defence,
his wife was a master merchant including after converting to Islam, he forbade the forced prostitution of slaves and he said men and women are equal in Quran 3:195

[Izaakia]

OMG! It’s almost as if they systematically and consistently discriminate against women like they’re second class citizens.

If you live in Europe someone on here could report you for hate speech.
I feel like reporting you and Frievolk to the NS admins.

Also I do live in Europe, and I am honestly bamboozled as to what possible legal framework you could possibly report me for hate speech.

[Jolthig]

And exactly how did Muhammad treat women as "second class"?

Seriously, Jolthig? I respect you as a fellow roamer of the NS, and see you as a friend, but we've been through this a lot of times. I've brought my arguments, you've brought yours. We disagreed with each other every time, in this case (I notice you didn't deny the "People of the book" thing, of course).
Do you really want us to get into the argument again, and end up with an agree to disagree situation, again?

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=34897437#p34897437

I understand that you're heated from Amin; which makes me ask, since you asked me why are we arguing; why are you arguing with Amin then if you and him disagree as well.

As for me, if we did already argue and brought our points, forgive me then. I agree that we can agree to disagree.

[Frievolk]

Ironic that every single Muslim country in human history, including Muhammad's Caliphate, have horrible second-class citizenship for women, the People of the book, etc, hmm?
I'm sure they're all at fault and Islam is innocent. I wonder, how many times do we need to give Islam grace before we decide "so maybe this religion is just problematic" like we did with fascism?

1- Fascism is by definition evil.

2- Also I believe Muhammad said when a rapist was killed in self-defence "there is no diyyah for this man" in other words not even compensation should be given for the life of a rapist killed by an innocent woman in self defence,
3- his wife was a master merchant including after converting to Islam, he forbade the forced prostitution of slaves and he said men and women are equal in Quran 3:195

1- Yeah, from your point of view. From a certain point of view, Islam is also by definition evil. Yet, we've given it grace after grace after grace, one chance after the other after Muhammad brought chaos to Arabia, after The Rashidun commited gnocide in Persia, after the Umavids enslaved Iberia and marched all the way to France, after the Abbasids went so nuts they started ethnic cleansing in India, when the Ottoman slave hunting went so nuts Castile had to go around the world to find a way to India, when one Islamic country after the other continued oppressing people, and even now, when Muslims march in protest, asking for a person to be executed in Pakistan for blasphemy. How many times is Islam supposed to be given a chance? When do we get to say enough is enough?

2- Evidence?

3- Yeah, and he was monogamous until Kadija died, not because he respected women, but because Kadija was more powerful than him and could ruin him in any way she wanted any time she wanted.

4- No he doesn't.

[Frievolk]

Seriously, Jolthig? I respect you as a fellow roamer of the NS, and see you as a friend, but we've been through this a lot of times. I've brought my arguments, you've brought yours. We disagreed with each other every time, in this case (I notice you didn't deny the "People of the book" thing, of course).
Do you really want us to get into the argument again, and end up with an agree to disagree situation, again?

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=34897437#p34897437

I understand that you're heated from Amin; which makes me ask, since you asked me why are we arguing; why are you arguing with Amin then if you and him disagree as well.

As for me, if we did already argue and brought our points, forgive me then. I agree that we can agree to disagree.

Meh, things like this tend to get forgotten. The debacle about Muhammad and women is something that pops up in the thread every ten or so pages, so no worries

[Jolthig]

I understand that you're heated from Amin; which makes me ask, since you asked me why are we arguing; why are you arguing with Amin then if you and him disagree as well.

As for me, if we did already argue and brought our points, forgive me then. I agree that we can agree to disagree.

Meh, things like this tend to get forgotten. The debacle about Muhammad and women is something that pops up in the thread every ten or so pages, so no worries

I just thought you were bringing up a different related topic on women so that's why I jumped in for a minute. Besides, I enjoy debating you. But I'll also agree to disagree like you said if it gets boring for either of us.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Yes, Muslim-majority nations' govs are DHaalimoon (wrongdoers).
In other news, the sky is blue and sometimes has clouds.

And anyone with any sense of decency would be unhappy about that, not dismiss it.

I'm not dismissing anything, I'm just saying that everybody knows this.

Yes, Muslim-majority nations' govs are DHaalimoon (wrongdoers).
In other news, the sky is blue and sometimes has clouds.

Ironic that every single Muslim country in human history, including Muhammad's Caliphate, have horrible second-class citizenship for women, the People of the book, etc, hmm?

This is not true.

I'm sure they're all at fault and Islam is innocent.

Correct. Those that did wrong are at fault.

I wonder, how many times do we need to give Islam grace before we decide "so maybe this religion is just problematic" like we did with fascism?

All the time.