The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Genivaria]

And once again we find that the One True Religion is confined by oral relativism.

Such as?

So Muhammad can do all these mighty things but the moral atrocity of slavery is conveniently impossible to abolish.

What mighty things are you referring to? Conquering Arabia and the surrounding lands isn't very specific.

Such as?

Such as being restricted by the excuse of 'oh it was a different time and place'.
Islam had the power to abolish slavery and did not, in fact it did the opposite and slavery flourished under several Islamic regimes and cultures.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well you're just talking about war, not piracy. War is halal if done right, and piracy is haram, period. Same goes for raiding and plundering (by which I mean committing atrocities).

Is piracy haram? Because historically muslim pirated have been really good at it. The barbary ones especially, huge respect for them.

Well, piracy is a form of theft, and theft is haram. Hence, piracy is haram. And the Barbary pirates were bad.

The Quran is intended to be a book of all ages. It is intended for peoples of various circumstances. As for the case of Arabia, abolishing slavery with the pen would've been disastrous.

Muhammad and his successors led armies that conquered lands from Persia to Spain. They created a caliphate, converted people to Islam, and imposed their laws upon them.

No one can convert anyone to Al-Islam except Allah SWT. And "imposed their laws upon them", well, that depends on the ruler and nation you're talking about.

Is there some reason one can't impose a condition like the abolition of slavery on a defeated, conquered kingdom? In that position, the victor can do as they please.

Actually, the victor can't do as they please, they still have to abide by the law of Allah SWT.

[Genivaria]

Is piracy haram? Because historically muslim pirated have been really good at it. The barbary ones especially, huge respect for them.

Well, piracy is a form of theft, and theft is haram. Hence, piracy is haram. And the Barbary pirates were bad.

Muhammad and his successors led armies that conquered lands from Persia to Spain. They created a caliphate, converted people to Islam, and imposed their laws upon them.

No one can convert anyone to Al-Islam except Allah SWT. And "imposed their laws upon them", well, that depends on the ruler and nation you're talking about.

Is there some reason one can't impose a condition like the abolition of slavery on a defeated, conquered kingdom? In that position, the victor can do as they please.

Actually, the victor can't do as they please, they still have to abide by the law of Allah SWT.

So you're saying that the law of Allah forbids the abolishment of slavery?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

No one was forced into Islam.


Read my response to you again.

So Muhammad can do all these mighty things

Nope. He was just a man.

but the moral atrocity of slavery

Which kind?

is conveniently impossible to abolish.

Correct. Allah SWT does not want to impose hardship upon us.

[Jolthig]

Such as?


What mighty things are you referring to? Conquering Arabia and the surrounding lands isn't very specific.

Such as?

Such as being restricted by the excuse of 'oh it was a different time and place'.

What makes it so much an excuse? Or rather, since we are on the topic of slavery, what happened to the former slaves in the former CSA after slavery was abolished after the Civil War?

Islam had the power to abolish slavery and did not, in fact it did the opposite and slavery flourished under several Islamic regimes and cultures.

You know that the post you responded to earlier did answer this, right?

If the Qu'ran is the word of God, shouldn't it just abolish slavery by God saying "Don't have slaves!"? Doesn't God get to make decisions like that?

The Quran is intended to be a book of all ages. It is intended for peoples of various circumstances. As for the case of Arabia, abolishing slavery with the pen would've been disastrous.

What did Arabia thrive on? Slavery.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Well, piracy is a form of theft, and theft is haram. Hence, piracy is haram. And the Barbary pirates were bad.

No one can convert anyone to Al-Islam except Allah SWT. And "imposed their laws upon them", well, that depends on the ruler and nation you're talking about.

Actually, the victor can't do as they please, they still have to abide by the law of Allah SWT.

So you're saying that the law of Allah forbids the abolishment of slavery?

Well, you can't make haram what Allah SWT made halal, so...I guess so.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

No one can convert anyone to Al-Islam except Allah SWT.

Oh. My. Fucking. God. I swear, this is the kind of pedantry you use that makes arguing with you like talking to a fucking wall.

[Genivaria]

So Muhammad can do all these mighty things

Nope. He was just a man.

but the moral atrocity of slavery

Which kind?

is conveniently impossible to abolish.

Correct. Allah SWT does not want to impose hardship upon us.

We've already both agreed that it doesn't matter what you think remember?
So go ahead and assume that I wasn't talking to you.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Nope. He was just a man.

Which kind?

Correct. Allah SWT does not want to impose hardship upon us.

We've already both agreed that it doesn't matter what you think remember?
So go ahead and assume that I wasn't talking to you.

What are you talking about?

[Genivaria]

Such as being restricted by the excuse of 'oh it was a different time and place'.

What makes it so much an excuse? Or rather, since we are on the topic of slavery, what happened to the former slaves in the former CSA after slavery was abolished after the Civil War?

Islam had the power to abolish slavery and did not, in fact it did the opposite and slavery flourished under several Islamic regimes and cultures.

You know that the post you responded to earlier did answer this, right?

The Quran is intended to be a book of all ages. It is intended for peoples of various circumstances. As for the case of Arabia, abolishing slavery with the pen would've been disastrous.

What did Arabia thrive on? Slavery.

I'm not sure what your point on slavery in America is, clarify for me.

You know that the post you responded to earlier did answer this, right?

That it would've been 'disastrous for Arabia' yes and that isn't an impressive excuse.

[Kaggeceria]

So Muhammad can do all these mighty things

Nope. He was just a man.

but the moral atrocity of slavery

Which kind?

is conveniently impossible to abolish.

Correct. Allah SWT does not want to impose hardship upon us.

He does not want to impose hardships on us so he allows for slavery...

[Genivaria]

Nope. He was just a man.

Which kind?

Correct. Allah SWT does not want to impose hardship upon us.

He does not want to impose hardships on us so he allows for slavery...

It's some very bass akward logic isn't it?

[Negarakita]

So you're saying that the law of Allah forbids the abolishment of slavery?

Well, you can't make haram what Allah SWT made halal, so...I guess so.

Oh no oh no

Pls stop El-Amin. Please.

[Frievolk]

Nope. He was just a man.

Which kind?

Correct. Allah SWT does not want to impose hardship upon us.

He does not want to impose hardships on us so he allows for slavery...

The thing about that is it "doesn't wish to impose hardships" on Muslims. Non-Muslims (which are the castes you get Slaves from. Most of the time) are not part of that group, and make no mistake, Islamic Slavery is a hundred times more cruel than Trans-Atlantic Slavery (at the very least, they didn't employ the women as sex slaves and don't cut off the men's manhoods. Most of the time)

[Greater Cesnica]

Well, you can't make haram what Allah SWT made halal, so...I guess so.

Oh no oh no

Pls stop El-Amin. Please.

Amin is actually special holy shit.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That it would've been 'disastrous for Arabia' yes and that isn't an impressive excuse.

Kinda is. People wouldn't convert to the Deen if it destroys them. That's why Allah SWT tells Prophet Muhammad SAWS that "...if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you."

[Genivaria]

We've already both agreed that it doesn't matter what you think remember?
So go ahead and assume that I wasn't talking to you.

What are you talking about?

I would like a yes or a no.
Do you think it's acceptable to own people as property?

What I think doesn't matter. What matters is what is acceptable in Al-Islam.

[Greater Cesnica]

That it would've been 'disastrous for Arabia' yes and that isn't an impressive excuse.

Kinda is. People wouldn't convert to the Deen if it destroys them. That's why Allah SWT tells Prophet Muhammad SAWS that "...if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you."

So... you support slavery of Non-Muslims?


LOVELY

[Genivaria]

He does not want to impose hardships on us so he allows for slavery...

The thing about that is it "doesn't wish to impose hardships" on Muslims. Non-Muslims (which are the castes you get Slaves from. Most of the time) are not part of that group, and make no mistake, Islamic Slavery is a hundred times more cruel than Trans-Atlantic Slavery (at the very least, they didn't employ the women as sex slaves and don't cut off the men's manhoods. Most of the time)

In fairness I will disagree on this bit. While a whole industry wasn't built around it many slave-owners did rape their female house slaves and then enslave their own children from them.
Which is a special kind of fucked up on its own.

[Greater Cesnica]

What are you talking about?

What I think doesn't matter. What matters is what is acceptable in Al-Islam.

This man keeps dancing around whether he likes slavery or nah holy fuck like yes or no.

This idiocy, this utter lunacy, Amin drove Jolthig out of IDT. He telegrammed me saying he was tired of Amin's poor representation of Islam.

[Genivaria]

Kinda is. People wouldn't convert to the Deen if it destroys them. That's why Allah SWT tells Prophet Muhammad SAWS that "...if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you."

So... you support slavery of Non-Muslims?


LOVELY

I remember him previously claiming that non-Muslims wouldn't have to live under Sharia, apparently they'd just have to be slaves.

[Greater Cesnica]

So... you support slavery of Non-Muslims?


LOVELY

I remember him previously claiming that non-Muslims wouldn't have to live under Sharia, apparently they'd just have to be slaves.

Legit, this is why people don't like Muslims or Islam. People like Amin. He drives people away, by making these bullshit arguments.

[Jolthig]

What makes it so much an excuse? Or rather, since we are on the topic of slavery, what happened to the former slaves in the former CSA after slavery was abolished after the Civil War?


You know that the post you responded to earlier did answer this, right?



What did Arabia thrive on? Slavery.

I'm not sure what your point on slavery in America is, clarify for me.

Well you said that slavery is wrong, and I am in agreement with you on this. The only thing we disagree on is how to abolish it.

I cited the aftermath of the Civil War because the former slaves weren't helped when slavery was abolished with the stroke of a pen. Mansions went poor, but so did the former slaves. Many of them went out on the streets. Some did get jobs, but many were disadvantaged, and the government failed to help them out.

The same would've been with the case of Arabia. Often slavery was big in the ancient times up until the 19th century. Arabia thrived on slavery alongside the trade with Syria. Being in the middle of a barren wasteland can be pretty hard financially. I'm not saying in any way what they did was right, but I'm also acknowledging the financial and economic circumstances for both Arabia and the fallen CSA.

The brutal treatment of slaves by itself (whippings and overwork) could've been abolished as it had no impact on the financial and economics of the regions. It all depended on who the owner was.

[Negarakita]

This man keeps dancing around whether he likes slavery or nah holy fuck like yes or no.

This idiocy, this utter lunacy, Amin drove Jolthig out of IDT. He telegrammed me saying he was tired of Amin's poor representation of Islam.

I'm close, and I'm not even a muslim.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Muhammad and his successors led armies that conquered lands from Persia to Spain. They created a caliphate, converted people to Islam, and imposed their laws upon them.

No one was forced into Islam.

There's plenty of times people were though.