The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Frievolk]

A lot of this would include Islam.

Literally only the last thing would fit into Al-Islam.

The only one not directly related to Islam is the Incel/redpill one.

[Darussalam]

Incorrect. Muslims cannot be enslaved, i.e having their status transitioned from presumption of freedom to slavery, but a slave that converts to Islam does not automatically earn their freedom. If slavery is that easy to bypass there won't be that many slaves in classical Muslim society, one of the largest slave societies in the world aside from American plantations and the Roman Empire.

Well, a slave could really just ask for their freedom and the master should give it to him/her iirc.

No. As the link you gave in the next post indicated, whether a slave should be freed or not is entirely the prerogative of their owner.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That's not how Islamic slavery works.

True, this is the Asian model. Designed so people can say "they get paid, it is not slavery!" and not feel bad when they buy clothes/electronics/etc.

Ignoring that they only get paid on paper, not in reality.

What are you talking about?

Yeah, many things have been dropped in the Ummah. It's pretty sad.

If humans are so flawed they consistently show themselves to be unable to adhere to "true" Islam, and if such partial adherence tends to worsen instead of improve conditions and if that has bern holding true for 1500 years... does that not make Islam a failure or at least useless in practice ?

Muslims' disobedience does not mean that Al-Islam has failed.

Well, a slave could really just ask for their freedom and the master should give it to him/her iirc.

No. As the link you gave in the next post indicated, whether a slave should be freed or not is entirely the prerogative of their owner.

Actually, if the slave asks for their freedom, the master is obligated to free them iirc.

[The Eternal Aulus]

All slavery posting aside.Here's a great website to learn more about Islam if you want. It even offers free online courses in different fields. Including, but not limited to, Islam and marriage, essentials in the Islamic faith, Islamic jurisdiction and a lot more.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

All slavery posting aside.Here's a great website to learn more about Islam if you want. It even offers free online courses in different fields. Including, but not limited to, Islam and marriage, essentials in the Islamic faith, Islamic jurisdiction and a lot more.

Yeah Seekershub is cool.

[The Eternal Aulus]

One of the most known, if not the most known Hadith of Islam is the so-called Hadeeth of Gabriel.

Narrated by Abu Huraira, one of the Prophet's closest Sahabah:

One day while the Prophet was sitting in the company of some people, (The angel) Gabriel came and asked, "What is faith?" Allah's Messenger replied, 'Faith is to believe in Allah, His angels, (the) meeting with Him, His Apostles, and to believe in Resurrection." Then he further asked, "What is Islam?" Allah's Messenger replied, "To worship Allah Alone and none else, to offer prayers perfectly, to pay the compulsory charity (Zakat) and to observe fasts during the month of Ramadan." Then he further asked, "What is Ihsan (perfection)?" Allah's Messenger replied, "To worship Allah as if you see Him, and if you cannot achieve this state of devotion then you must consider that He is looking at you." Then he further asked, "When will the Hour be established?" Allah's Messenger replied, "The answerer has no better knowledge than the questioner. But I will inform you about its portents.

When a slave (lady) gives birth to her master.
When the shepherds of black camels start boasting and competing with others in the construction of higher buildings. And the Hour is one of five things which nobody knows except Allah.

The Prophet then recited: "Verily, with Allah (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour--." (31. 34) Then that man (Gabriel) left and the Prophet asked his companions to call him back, but they could not see him. Then the Prophet said, "That was Gabriel who came to teach the people their religion." Abu 'Abdullah said: He (the Prophet) considered all that as a part of faith.

For those with a good eye, in this hadeeth narrated from Al-Bukhari, there is no mention of the Hajj as part of the Islam. This [the Hajj] is however mentioned in Muslim's hadith.

[Herskerstad]

Actually, if the slave asks for their freedom, the master is obligated to free them iirc.

Man, all of those million African slaves in the east african slave trade must have really liked being slaves then, never asking for such.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Actually, if the slave asks for their freedom, the master is obligated to free them iirc.

Man, all of those million African slaves in the east african slave trade must have really liked being slaves then, never asking for such.

Pretty sure you just moved the goalposts. We're talking about Islamic Law, not Islamic history.

[Herskerstad]

Man, all of those million African slaves in the east african slave trade must have really liked being slaves then, never asking for such.

Pretty sure you just moved the goalposts. We're talking about Islamic Law, not Islamic history.

Presumably the Islamic caliphates did operate under Islamic law.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Pretty sure you just moved the goalposts. We're talking about Islamic Law, not Islamic history.

Presumably the Islamic caliphates did operate under Islamic law.

Only 1 did it 100%.

[Frievolk]

Man, all of those million African slaves in the east african slave trade must have really liked being slaves then, never asking for such.

Pretty sure you just moved the goalposts. We're talking about Islamic Law, not Islamic history.

If literally none of the Islamic States and Islamic Countries obeyed the so-called Islamic Law up until their secularization, then Islamic Law should be thrown in trash where, even the Muslims themselves have realized, it belongs.

[Herskerstad]

Presumably the Islamic caliphates did operate under Islamic law.

Only 1 did it 100%.

The slave trade continued under the Rashidun Caliphate. Top officials and Muhammad himself traded slaves from the earliest sources we have on him contrasted with this silly idea that they'd just have to ask to be freed, and they'd be freed.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Only 1 did it 100%.

The slave trade continued under the Rashidun Caliphate. Top officials and Muhammad himself traded slaves from the earliest sources we have on him

I never said they didn't. Again, The topic is about slavery under Islamic Law, not what Muslims did throughout history.

contrasted with this silly idea

It's not silly, it's part of Shari'ah.

that they'd just have to ask to be freed, and they'd be freed.

https://islamqa.info/en/94840:

If a person is enslaved for some reason but then it becomes apparent that he has given up his wrongdoing and forgotten his past, and he has become a man who shuns evil and seeks to do good, is it permissible to respond to his request to let him go free? Islam says yes, and there are some fuqaha’ who say that this is obligatory and some who say that it is mustahabb.

This is what is called a mukaatabah or contract of manumission between the slave and his master. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), give them such writing, if you find that there is good and honesty in them. And give them something (yourselves) out of the wealth of Allaah which He has bestowed upon you”

[al-Noor 24:33]

http://islam-wa-sunnah.com/fatwa/index. ... definition
https://www.al-islam.org/slavery-from-i ... ks-slavery:

Slaves were given a right to ransom themselves either on payment of an agreed sum or on completion of service for an agreed period. The legal term for this is mukatabah. Allah says in the Qur'an:

And those who seek a deed [of liberation] from among those [slaves] whom your right hands possess, give them the writing (kitab) if you know of goodness in them, and give them of the wealth of Allah which He has given you.. (Qur'an 24:33)

The word kitab in the verse stands for the written contract between the slave and his master known as “mukatabah - deed of contract”. The significant factor in mukatabah is that when a slave desires to get into such a mutual written contract, the master should not refuse it. In the verse quoted above, God has made it incumbent upon Muslims to help the slaves in getting liberated.

When a slave wants to get himself freed, the master has not only to agree to it, but he is also directed to help the slave from his own wealth. The only provision being the satisfaction to the effect that the slave would live a respectable life after earning his freedom. Thus, about 1400 years ago Islam dealt in the most effective way a death blow to slavery.

It also directed that the slaves seeking freedom should be helped from the public treasury (baytul mal). Thus, as a last resort, the Prophet and his rightful successors were to provide ransom for the slaves out of state coffers. The Qur'an recognises the emancipation of slaves as one of the permissible expenditures of alms and charity.

http://www.islamweb.net/en/article/1174 ... of-slavery:

It was decreed that if a slave wanted to purchase his or her freedom, he or she should be helped with money and the means to maintain an independent life.

The Noble Quran commands (what means) : "Marry those among you who are single or the virtuous ones among your slaves, male or female. If they are in poverty, Allah will give them means out of His grace: for Allah encompasses all and He knows all things … And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum) give them such a deed if you know any good in them. Yea give them something yourselves out of the means which Allah has given to you. But force not your maids into prostitution when they desire chastity in order that you may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them yet after such compulsion is Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)." [Quran 24:32-33]

Abdullah Yousuf Ali's commentary on the following verses runs as follows: “A slave, male or female could ask for conditional freedom by a written deed fixing the amount required for emancipation, and allowing the slave meanwhile to earn money by lawful means and perhaps marry and bring up a family. Such a deed was not to be refused if the request was genuine and the slave had character. Not only that, but the master is directed to help with money out of his own resources in order to enable the slave to earn his or her own liberty."

[El-Amin Caliphate]

There's soke pretty good arguments supoorting the claim that Al-Islam sought to phase out slavery. Hmmmm...

[Frievolk]

There's soke pretty good arguments supoorting the claim that Al-Islam sought to phase out slavery. Hmmmm...

Any such argument is either retarded or really really taking the "let's lie so people join my religion" thing seriously. Or it's Jolthig's, who I personally know is neither

[Jolthig]

There's soke pretty good arguments supoorting the claim that Al-Islam sought to phase out slavery. Hmmmm...

Any such argument is either retarded or really really taking the "let's lie so people join my religion" thing seriously. Or it's Jolthig's, who I personally know is neither

Neither?

[Frievolk]

Any such argument is either retarded or really really taking the "let's lie so people join my religion" thing seriously. Or it's Jolthig's, who I personally know is neither

Neither?

You're neither retarded, nor have I witnessed you having a habit of lying in order to get people to join your religion. Which makes me wonder why you unironically make the argument that Islam actually planned to phase out slavery, given how it essentially made it into a trade system in the Middle East.

[Jolthig]

Neither?

You're neither retarded, nor have I witnessed you having a habit of lying in order to get people to join your religion. Which makes me wonder why you unironically make the argument that Islam actually planned to phase out slavery, given how it essentially made it into a trade system in the Middle East.

It really depends on who the ruler is during the era. And slavery as far as I know of, was already prevalent in the region by the time Islam came in. Muhammad wasn't going to abolish it with the stroke of a pen lest it destroys the Arabian economy. Arabia thrived off of slavery. Does this mean, I personally advocate for slavery? No. It would be much better if we don't have it at all, but I will say on a historical level, Arabia thrived off of the trade in both the pre-Islamic and Islamic eras. Yes, slavery was at first intended to progressively abolish slavery, but later rulers reversed it.

I should do more study on that topic, but this is is generally my community's position on slavery.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Yes, slavery was at first intended to progressively abolish slavery

I lol'd

[Frievolk]

You're neither retarded, nor have I witnessed you having a habit of lying in order to get people to join your religion. Which makes me wonder why you unironically make the argument that Islam actually planned to phase out slavery, given how it essentially made it into a trade system in the Middle East.

It really depends on who the ruler is during the era. And slavery as far as I know of, was already prevalent in the region by the time Islam came in. Muhammad wasn't going to abolish it with the stroke of a pen lest it destroys the Arabian economy. Arabia thrived off of slavery. Does this mean, I personally advocate for slavery? No. It would be much better if we don't have it at all, but I will say on a historical level, Arabia thrived off of the trade in both the pre-Islamic and Islamic eras. Yes, slavery was at first intended to progressively abolish slavery, but later rulers reversed it.

I should do more study on that topic, but this is is generally my community's position on slavery.

To be fair, your own community (Ahmadiyya) was founded in late 19th century, in a British Controlled territory, with British "Slavery is Bad" sensibilities, so I am not surprised that your own community, unlike Islam in general (and more orthodox denominations in particular) does not support the institution of Slavery.
And make no mistake, the orthodox factions do absolutely support the institution of Slavery. They've never had a reason not to (hell, even the illegalization and later criminalization of slavery was enforced on them by "Imperial Powers" against their own will which led to revolts iirc.)

[Herskerstad]

Neither?

You're neither retarded, nor have I witnessed you having a habit of lying in order to get people to join your religion. Which makes me wonder why you unironically make the argument that Islam actually planned to phase out slavery, given how it essentially made it into a trade system in the Middle East.

The greatest manumition effect of Islam was never this fairy-tale of free a slave if he asks you as that was always legally and otherwise in the prerogative of the slave master, but rather the deed that slaves that give birth from their master be freed which was not that much of a new thing even at the time. However, in institutionalise it, it did zap a good deal of the internal slave holdings and with empire it allowed the Arabs to look outwards for such a source, primarily in India and Africa, rather than inwards. While outwards trade did exist in pre-Islamic eras, Muhammad himself being a slave trader himself, started what was in all likelihood the largest slave trade in history. A far cry from phasing it out.

[Page]

How.

Islam claims the Quran is direct dictation from God. CorrectChristianity doesn’t make the same claim about the Bible.

Does it not? I think most Christians are fond of the term "divinely inspired." Are Christians claiming only partial divine inspiration, like "it's generally the word of God except the rules about gays and shrimp are made up and Jesus didn't curse a fig tree, it was a pear tree"? Sarcasm aside, what I'm asking is doesn't divinely inspired mean everything is divinely inspired? And is there really a difference between God inspiring and God dictating?

On the subject of the Qu'ran, I read about a quarter of the way through it. It's kind of a strange mix of a Beowulf style epic, an autobiography of Mohammed, and a long list of rules. One thing that I noticed was how very often "God is merciful" is repeated. Of course, I've heard some Muslims say that the Qu'ran has to be read in Arabic and that reading it in English just isn't the same, but I don't think I'd ever be able to pull of learning Arabic - I'm barely proficient in German and that took years and I still can't get the der/die/das thing right half the time.

[Frievolk]

You're neither retarded, nor have I witnessed you having a habit of lying in order to get people to join your religion. Which makes me wonder why you unironically make the argument that Islam actually planned to phase out slavery, given how it essentially made it into a trade system in the Middle East.

The greatest manumition effect of Islam was never this fairy-tale of free a slave if he asks you as that was always legally and otherwise in the prerogative of the slave master, but rather the deed that slaves that give birth from their master be freed which was not that much of a new thing even at the time. However, in institutionalise it, it did zap a good deal of the internal slave holdings and with empire it allowed the Arabs to look outwards for such a source, primarily in India and Africa, rather than inwards. While outwards trade did exist in pre-Islamic eras, Muhammad himself being a slave trader himself, started what was in all likelihood the largest slave trade in history. A far cry from phasing it out.

I have not heard of there being a Slave trade that big in either Arabia or Persia at the time. I mean slavery definitely existed in both, but I'm not sure if it was an economic concept to the extent it is in Islam as a religion. Byzantine Rome is, of course, a completely different beast to tackle.

[Jolthig]

Yes, slavery was at first intended to progressively abolish slavery

I lol'd

Whoops. I meant Islam intended to progressively abolish it ahhahhaa

It really depends on who the ruler is during the era. And slavery as far as I know of, was already prevalent in the region by the time Islam came in. Muhammad wasn't going to abolish it with the stroke of a pen lest it destroys the Arabian economy. Arabia thrived off of slavery. Does this mean, I personally advocate for slavery? No. It would be much better if we don't have it at all, but I will say on a historical level, Arabia thrived off of the trade in both the pre-Islamic and Islamic eras. Yes, slavery was at first intended to progressively abolish slavery, but later rulers reversed it.

I should do more study on that topic, but this is is generally my community's position on slavery.

To be fair, your own community (Ahmadiyya) was founded in late 19th century, in a British Controlled territory, with British "Slavery is Bad" sensibilities, so I am not surprised that your own community, unlike Islam in general (and more orthodox denominations in particular) does not support the institution of Slavery.
And make no mistake, the orthodox factions do absolutely support the institution of Slavery. They've never had a reason not to (hell, even the illegalization and later criminalization of slavery was enforced on them by "Imperial Powers" against their own will which led to revolts iirc.)

Eh, not British influenced. Though we generally do believe since the world is in a different state, we are to obey the governments in power today

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You're neither retarded, nor have I witnessed you having a habit of lying in order to get people to join your religion. Which makes me wonder why you unironically make the argument that Islam actually planned to phase out slavery, given how it essentially made it into a trade system in the Middle East.

The greatest manumition effect of Islam was never this fairy-tale of free a slave if he asks you as that was always legally and otherwise in the prerogative of the slave master

It's not a fairy-tale.