The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[El-Amin Caliphate]

It's a tax. Nothing more, nothing less.

Prophet Muhammad SAWS and the 'ulama exist. And you shouldn't be using 1 ayah as a talking point for a large subject.

The Holy Qur'an says a lot of things about non-Muslims, actually.

It's contrary to the Holy Qur'an as well.

You can’t say that an Islamic theocracy would not interfere with non Muslims then mention the literal punishment for being not Muslim

Where did I say that? There is no punishment for being non-Muslim.

[Internationalist Bastard]

You can’t say that an Islamic theocracy would not interfere with non Muslims then mention the literal punishment for being not Muslim

Where did I say that? There is no punishment for being non-Muslim.

Do you support the Jhizira Tax?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Where did I say that? There is no punishment for being non-Muslim.

Do you support the Jhizira Tax?

*Jizya, and I will direct you to this excerpt of 1 of my posts for an answer:

Yes, I support everything in Al-Islam

[Kaggeceria]

Do you support the Jhizira Tax?

*Jizya, and I will direct you to this excerpt of 1 of my posts:

Yes, I support everything in Al-Islam

Then you support separate rules for non-Muslims.

Separate but equal, one might say.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

*Jizya, and I will direct you to this excerpt of 1 of my posts:

Then you support separate rules for non-Muslims.

I've said this before as well, yes.

[Kaggeceria]

Then you support separate rules for non-Muslims.

I've said this before as well, yes.

Then you are being inherently discriminatory.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

You can’t say that an Islamic theocracy would not interfere with non Muslims then mention the literal punishment for being not Muslim

Where did I say that? There is no punishment for being non-Muslim.

No. Not at all. The Quran just specifically states that the jizya should make those who it is levied against feel "subdued". No punishment there. No siree.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Where did I say that? There is no punishment for being non-Muslim.

No. Not at all. The Quran just specifically states that the jizya should make those who it is levied against feel "subdued". No punishment there. No siree.

Correct.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

No. Not at all. The Quran just specifically states that the jizya should make those who it is levied against feel "subdued". No punishment there. No siree.

Correct.

Long story short, screw your jizya tax, for it is a tax that is meant as a coercive conversion measure.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

No. Not at all. The Quran just specifically states that the jizya should make those who it is levied against feel "subdued". No punishment there. No siree.

Correct.

Please. Give me a coherent and rational explanation as to how jizya is not coercion or punishment. In your own words, please. ie. Don't follow your SOP and copy a link.

[Negarakita]

Correct.

Please. Give me a coherent and rational explanation as to how jizya is not coercion or punishment. In your own words, please. ie. Don't follow your SOP and copy a link.

The main thing is that Muslims still have to pay Zakat, so both pay taxes they just have different names.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Please. Give me a coherent and rational explanation as to how jizya is not coercion or punishment. In your own words, please. ie. Don't follow your SOP and copy a link.

The main thing is that Muslims still have to pay Zakat, so both pay taxes they just have different names.

Yes but does that Quran give zakat as a condition for surrender against an enemy so that they feel "subdued"?

[Herskerstad]

Please. Give me a coherent and rational explanation as to how jizya is not coercion or punishment. In your own words, please. ie. Don't follow your SOP and copy a link.

The main thing is that Muslims still have to pay Zakat, so both pay taxes they just have different names.

Zakat is 2.5%

The Jizya tax while it has historical variations tend to range from 20% for the poor, 40% for the affluent, and 80% for the rich. Along with subjugation ceremonies and other extortionate issues. There is a good reason why the Coptic church stated they would resist it's re-imposition to the point of martyrdom.

[Herskerstad]

Regarding there being no punishment for apostasy in the Quran...



Do these hadith even contradict the Qu'ran though? It doesn't proscribe a punishment for apostasy, but AFAIK it also doesn't say apostates should be left alone, and treats leaving Islam in general as a grave sin.

---

On another point, since the Qu'ran states that nonbelievers have forfeited their ticket to paradise on account of their unbelief alone and are condemned to suffer in Hell eternally (98:6), shouldn't every honest Muslim who also has only the best interest of other humans at heart be trying their best to convert everyone? Note that this verse is revealed later than the oft-cited "no compulsion in religion", therefore abrogating the former and its injunction to be tolerant.

Actually, we say that punishment for apostasy (execution) contradicts the Quran because there are several verses that say "those who change their religion and then revert and then back to religion, etc. Allah will never forgive them."

Something like that. Doesn't mean there's execution for apostasy.

Often Ibn Kathir is cited that 9:5 is proof 2:256 has been abrogated, but know that in the views of my community, we don't believe in abrogation, contrary to traditional views.

Though Ibn Kathir has contradicting narrations on 9:5-9:6.

I will provide the evidence later.

Yeah come to think of it a great deal of Islam's problems do arise from Naskh. Though that is specific to the quran given the relatively more peaceful verses of the Meccan time to the rather jingoistic ones of the Medinan era. It's a really strange doctrine for presumably some unwritten and eternal words that has co-existed with Allah since eternity past part of me says.

Though there is a rather significant problem of rejecting the doctrine of abrogation since it is in the quran itself, unless one believes the editions we have today to be edited. Could you explain your take on rejecting it?

[Kubumba Tribe]

The main thing is that Muslims still have to pay Zakat, so both pay taxes they just have different names.

Yes but does that Quran give zakat as a condition for surrender against an enemy so that they feel "subdued"?

I mean, it's subduction to Allah SWT, so it's similar. Also, considering the early Muslims were warring against the mushrikoon and some of the ahlul-kitaab, jizya was a tax "while they're subdued" aka under Muslim rule. Nowadays it's not just against non-Muslims who fight against us, but all non-Muslims citizens of an Islamic nation.

The main thing is that Muslims still have to pay Zakat, so both pay taxes they just have different names.

Zakat is 2.5%

The Jizya tax while it has historical variations tend to range from 20% for the poor, 40% for the affluent, and 80% for the rich. Along with subjugation ceremonies and other extortionate issues. There is a good reason why the Coptic church stated they would resist it's re-imposition to the point of martyrdom.

https://islamqa.info/en/214074:

With regard to the rate of jizyah, the fuqaha’ differed concerning the exact rate, and there are several views.

The first view: is that the wealthy man should pay forty-eight dirhams per year, the man of moderate means should pay twenty-four dirhams, and the poor man who is able to work should pay twelve dirhams.

This is the view of Abu Haneefah, and of Ahmad according to one report.

The second view: Maalik said that people who use gold as currency should pay four dinars and people who use silver as currency should pay forty dirhams, and there is no differentiation in that regard between rich and poor.

The third view: ash-Shaafa‘i said: The minimum rate of jizyah is one pure gold dinar, and there is no maximum limit. There is no differentiation between rich and poor.

Perhaps the most likely to be correct is the view that concerning the jizyah, it should be decided by the ruler, who may increase it or decrease it according to the ability of ahl adh-dhimmah to pay it, and according to what he sees fit. This was narrated from Imam Ahmad.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allah have mercy on him) said: Imam Ahmad did not give a set amount for the jizyah, according to the more sound of the two reports narrated from him.

[Suhkkot]

Do people actually come in here and bother us, brothers? I just wanted to talk about Islam with other muslims.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Do people actually come in here and bother us, brothers? I just wanted to talk about Islam with other muslims.

You should've joined here earlier. There were more Muslims here once, but now they're all gone, either they don't come here or they don't play on NS anymore. Now it's just me and Jolthig reciting the same repeated lies about Al-Islam.

But don't go! We need more Muslims here!

A Muslim who does not wish to submit to Sharia, or Apostates to another religion, has the inherent right as a human being with free will to do so. Thus the punishment dictated under sharia (death)

It's not death.

[Suhkkot]

Do people actually come in here and bother us, brothers? I just wanted to talk about Islam with other muslims.

You should've joined here earlier. There were more Muslims here once, but now they're all gone, either they don't come here or they don't play on NS anymore. Now it's just me and Jolthig reciting the same repeated lies about Al-Islam.

But don't go! We need more Muslims here!

A Muslim who does not wish to submit to Sharia, or Apostates to another religion, has the inherent right as a human being with free will to do so. Thus the punishment dictated under sharia (death)

It's not death.

I think people left because we entertained the argument. If we present ourselves as good people, I don't think the islamophobes will have too much sway over non-muslims.

If someone can't be arsed to google search beyond propaganda sites ran by a guy pretending to be a murtad, then whatever.

[Tarsonis]

Do people actually come in here and bother us, brothers? I just wanted to talk about Islam with other muslims.

You should've joined here earlier. There were more Muslims here once, but now they're all gone, either they don't come here or they don't play on NS anymore. Now it's just me and Jolthig reciting the same repeated lies about Al-Islam.

But don't go! We need more Muslims here!

A Muslim who does not wish to submit to Sharia, or Apostates to another religion, has the inherent right as a human being with free will to do so. Thus the punishment dictated under sharia (death)

It's not death.

Yes, it is...
"If a Muslim apostatizes and meets the conditions of apostasy – i.e., he is of sound mind, an adult and does that of his own free will – then his blood may be shed with impunity. He is to be executed by the Muslim ruler or by his deputy – such as the qaadi or judge, and he is not to not be washed (after death, in preparation for burial), the funeral prayer is not to be offered for him and he is not to be buried with the Muslims. "



https://islamqa.info/en/20327

https://islamqa.info/en/244191


Prevailing scholastic view in the Islamic community is that Apostasy is a hadd crime. You can object, but you are in the minority opinion on that front.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I do come on here to genuinely discuss theology
Amin just brings his desire for theocracy into everything

[The New California Republic]

Do people actually come in here and bother us, brothers? I just wanted to talk about Islam with other muslims.

There are no closed threads in NSGeneral.

[Quantipapa]

Do people actually come in here and bother us, brothers? I just wanted to talk about Islam with other muslims.

There are no closed threads in NSGeneral.

Yup. There are no closed threads. And a lot of them use that as an excuse to just stick their nose in everything with their self-righteous vibe. But that's ok, because there are no closed threads in NSGeneral.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I do come on here to genuinely discuss theology
Amin just brings his desire for theocracy into everything

>Implying that is the only thing I talk about

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=441628&p=34750507#p34750507

regardless of your opinion

Afaik it's not my opinion.

the point remains. You don't have a right to enforce a religious ideology onto others, that includes the affecting of Sharia law.

Actually I have a God-given right do to so. In fact, to rule by anything else is haram.

If a Muslim rejects Shari'ah law, while that might make them a heretic/apostate in your religion, they have the right to be heretics/apostates and not be religiously persecuted. That however, does not mean the community has no recourse. Excommunication is always a valid option, that does not violate secular law.

I know, that is allowed in Al-Islam. They have to answer to Allah SWT for that, not man.

[Saranidia]

I do come on here to genuinely discuss theology
Amin just brings his desire for theocracy into everything

it's ok Alex, everything will be fine.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I do come on here to genuinely discuss theology
Amin just brings his desire for theocracy into everything

it's ok Alex, everything will be fine.

I know
Just frustrated that I could be seen as anti Islam for disagreeing with one persons interpretation of it