The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Western Vale Confederacy]

The whole concept of the Holy Trinity is fairly f*cky, I'm not gonna lie.

I never quite understood it in my communion and confirmation classes.

Agreed. A lot of explanations for it are ridiculous.

That said, despite being Catholic from a traditional point of view and still believing in God (well, an abstract belief in him and the feeling that my good deeds will matter sometime or somewhere), I turned away from most of its aspects, especially with my distrust of organized religion.

Islam is more decentralized, but it really isn't any better, another mass control racket like the others.

[Greater Cesnica]

Agreed. A lot of explanations for it are ridiculous.

That said, despite being Catholic from a traditional point of view and still believing in God (well, an abstract belief in him and the feeling that my good deeds will matter sometime or somewhere), I turned away from most of its aspects, especially with my distrust of organized religion.

Islam is more decentralized, but it really isn't any better, another mass control racket like the others.

I don't trust organized religion at all. Personal religious beliefs are fine. Just don't force that shit on people.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

That said, despite being Catholic from a traditional point of view and still believing in God (well, an abstract belief in him and the feeling that my good deeds will matter sometime or somewhere), I turned away from most of its aspects, especially with my distrust of organized religion.

Islam is more decentralized, but it really isn't any better, another mass control racket like the others.

I don't trust organized religion at all. Personal religious beliefs are fine. Just don't force that shit on people.

That said, I might not trust organized religion, but as an aspiring historian, the legacy it left behind (artifacts, structures, etc...) must be preserved to an extent.

[Greater Cesnica]

I don't trust organized religion at all. Personal religious beliefs are fine. Just don't force that shit on people.

That said, I might not trust organized religion, but as an aspiring historian, the legacy it left behind (artifacts, structures, etc...) must be preserved to an extent.

Of course. I'm just discussing religion itself.

[Jolthig]

I understand where you guys are coming from. I, myself, used to oppose organized religion before I converted. Most of it is led by clergy or single pastors. In my late 0s-early 10s, my dad tried to convert me to Pentecostalism, but I ended up not liking it after a while.

[Herskerstad]

The argument is not that the quran should be judged completely separate form the hadiths, but the Quran is extremely limited in terms of the life of Muhammad, his role as a judge, warlord, ect and the Sunnah itself. Now I know you're not Sunni, but this is more an argument of standards. There are certain core practices in the five pillars that you won't find in the quran and it would be rather strange for example to have five daily prayers religiously as a doctrine while affirming only hadiths that have co-refrences directly in the Quran. It would be equally esoteric to find the message on Muhammad being under a spell to be one that reeks of error, but say find one of Muhammad doing something virtuous unreported in the quran as seeming right. It is a standard that is the very opposite of the criterion of embarrassment, only taking that which sounds good because all about a figure must be good even if his closest compatriots affirm otherwise. In fact a statement becomes especially believable if it affirms the flaws of someone by their closest compatriots. It's the same reason we don't take verbatim the early records of military leaders as, pre-Herodotus, a lot of it was simply propaganda, but take very seriously the internal critics who give differing accounts of the battle.

As I said I believe in a previous post, there is a difference between Sunnah and a Hadith that does offer any advice on the Quran. The five daily prayers is in accordance with the Quran as the Quran says to worship in the early morning, the afternoon, evenings, and night time. The Sunnah shows how to do that since Muhammad was the recipient of the Quran. So not sure what point you're trying to make.

I only reject that Hadith because it just seems odd. Even if it has a consistent and uncorrupted narration.

Yes, the Quran mentions four times. Not five. That is added in the hadiths along with the explanation for it. Had it not been for the hadiths or the traditions that came from it, you could ve certain that the organised equivalent for it would mandate four daily prayers. You get similar distinctions with the five pillars which is considered by most practising Muslims to be core to the religion. If passages of the collections can add to the faith in such a way, it becomes arbitrary to by largely cultural strains hold against it.

Don't get me wrong, the passage on Muhammad being bewitched brings with itself some pretty significant problems since it would mean that he was spiritually compromised, and if that was the case, what's stopping Gabriel to be some malevolent jin that would manhandle him in say a cave? Muhammad himself would have no reasonable standards of spiritual protection by that point being without the later protections and suicidal at that point. I mean I imagine in sermons it's used to show how strong magic and jins can be even with those they consider righteous aside from the protection of Allah, but it virtually compromises everything that comes from the first half of the meccan passages in the quran. And if this was what Muhammad's followers whom followed him and loved him told, it's less likely to be an invention and it's focus different than what we may consider today.

[Kubumba Tribe]

I only reject that Hadith because it just seems odd. Even if it has a consistent and uncorrupted narration.

Just because it seems odd doesn't mean it isn't true.

[Jolthig]

I only reject that Hadith because it just seems odd. Even if it has a consistent and uncorrupted narration.

Just because it seems odd doesn't mean it isn't true.

So you believe Muhammad (saw) was affected by black magic?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Just because it seems odd doesn't mean it isn't true.

So you believe Muhammad (saw) was affected by black magic?

I don't know, but I'm not just going to discredit something tested by people who know more about a subject than I do because of my ignorance.

[Jolthig]

So you believe Muhammad (saw) was affected by black magic?

I don't know, but I'm not just going to discredit something tested by people who know more about a subject than I do because of my ignorance.

Except you have several times in the past on Hadith of rajm. Sure the chain says the narration is narrated back to several pious companions, yet did they really say it?

[Kubumba Tribe]

I don't know, but I'm not just going to discredit something tested by people who know more about a subject than I do because of my ignorance.

Except you have several times in the past on Hadith of rajm.

Yes, because they contradict the Holy Qur'an. Being affected by magic doesn't necessarily contradict the Holy Qur'an.

Sure the chain says the narration is narrated back to several pious companions, yet did they really say it?

According to the scholars, yes.

[Jolthig]

Except you have several times in the past on Hadith of rajm.

Yes, because they contradict the Holy Qur'an. Being affected by magic doesn't necessarily contradict the Holy Qur'an.

Sure the chain says the narration is narrated back to several pious companions, yet did they really say it?

According to the scholars, yes.

But you just said the scholars know better than both of us.

So why would Allah allow black magic to affect the Prophet (saw)? Is it a thing according to the Quran?

Otherwise I asked someone from my community who is well versed on the science of Hadith to answer my question on it's validity. So I'll await his answer.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Yes, because they contradict the Holy Qur'an. Being affected by magic doesn't necessarily contradict the Holy Qur'an.

According to the scholars, yes.

But you just said the scholars know better than both of us.

Smarter =/= infallible

So why would Allah allow black magic to affect the Prophet (saw)? Is it a thing according to the Quran?

For the same reason we were created: as a test. And yes, madlgic is discussed in the Holy Qur'an.

[Kubumba Tribe]

1.) Muslims may kill infidels if they reject Allah. The bible only condones killing for War time. Or if God tells his prophets they must cleanse the lands.

https://legacy.quran.com/2/190
https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/223
http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/unders ... ml?start=9

2.) Muslim men may have sex with animals and still remain clean. God says if a woman presents herself to a Donkey to lie with it as a man. The Ass is to he killed as well as her. Beastiality has zero tolerance.

https://www.islamicpreacher.org/2017/12 ... y.html?m=1

3.) Allah changes his mind too often in the Koran. God does not change.

What are you talking about?

4.) If the Koran is Perfect why is there the Satanic verses.

There aren't.

5.) Muhommed

This is the strangest speaking of the Prophet Muhammad's SAWS name I've ever seen.

was not a perfect Prophet. If he was perfect like Christ. He then wouldn't be able to be tempted by Satan.

https://archive.islamonline.net/?p=826:

In another hadith, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) tells us that a demon is assigned to every human being:“There is no one among you but a comrade from among the jinn is assigned to him.”They (the Companions present in that occasion) said: “Even you, O Messenger of Allah?” He said:“Even me, but Allah granted me victory over him and he became Muslim (or: and I am safe from him), so he only enjoins me to do that which is good.”

[Kowani]

Islamic tenants allow for some pretty heinous things. Things that proves that Islam and Christians DO NOT worship the same God.

1.) Muslims may kill infidels if they reject Allah. The bible only condones killing for War time. Or if God tells his prophets they must cleanse the lands.

2.) Muslim men may have sex with animals and still remain clean. God says if a woman presents herself to a Donkey to lie with it as a man. The Ass is to he killed as well as her. Beastiality has zero tolerance.

3.) Allah changes his mind too often in the Koran. God does not change.

4.) If the Koran is Perfect why is there the Satanic verses.

5.) Muhommed was not a perfect Prophet. If he was perfect like Christ. He then wouldn't be able to be tempted by Satan.

1: so that stoning of non-virgins, that guy who gets mauled to death by bears...that was a war on what exactly? Human rights?
also, EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly, Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." Is that enough, or do you need more?

3: I would like to present you with that time where God said something, and then went and did the exact opposite: EX 20:13, DT 5:17, MK 10:19, LK 18:20, RO 13:9, JA 2:11 God prohibits killing.
GE 34:1-35:5 God condones trickery and killing.

5) I should point ou that Jesus was also tempted by Satan, remember those 40 days in the desert? The entire point of the story is to show Jesus overcoming temptation.

[Rectification Government]

Does Islam have anything like Christian canonization?

[Herskerstad]

Does Islam have anything like Christian canonization?

There is the equivalent of saints being Wali, but they are not officially canonized by a body per say.

[Internationalist Bastard]

So I’m not Muslim, so forgive my curiosity
But I’ve been studying a bit on the history of the Caliph and I was wondering, how many people want to have a a caliphate again, and if so how do you believe the Caliph should be chosen?

[Saranidia]

So I’m not Muslim, so forgive my curiosity
But I’ve been studying a bit on the history of the Caliph and I was wondering, how many people want to have a a caliphate again, and if so how do you believe the Caliph should be chosen?

I want to have a Caliphate again, I would have them chosen from Muhammad's family and meeting certain moral and intellectual criteria as well as being Muslim.

[Internationalist Bastard]

So I’m not Muslim, so forgive my curiosity
But I’ve been studying a bit on the history of the Caliph and I was wondering, how many people want to have a a caliphate again, and if so how do you believe the Caliph should be chosen?

I want to have a Caliphate again, I would have them chosen from Muhammad's family and meeting certain moral and intellectual criteria as well as being Muslim.

How many of his descendants still exist

[Washington Resistance Army]

I want to have a Caliphate again, I would have them chosen from Muhammad's family and meeting certain moral and intellectual criteria as well as being Muslim.

How many of his descendants still exist

A massive number one would assume because of how those things work.

[Internationalist Bastard]

How many of his descendants still exist

A massive number one would assume because of how those things work.

But I feel like there’s some criteria for it, like maybe it has to be direct?

[Kaggeceria]

The Islamic caliphates were all imperialistic.

Daily reminder that if you want a caliphate then you are an imperialist.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

A massive number one would assume because of how those things work.

But I feel like there’s some criteria for it, like maybe it has to be direct?

There are two terms often used:

-sayyid are those who are patrilineally descended from Ali (and Muhammad). There are hundreds of thousands to millions of these. Most Muslims will say that only these sorts of people can be caliph. Famous sayyids alive today include Khamenei, Abdullah II of Jordan, and the Aga Khan IV.

-Then there are the mirzas. They're the children of a sayyida (female sayyid). So, they're not themselves sayyids but their mother was. These are less broadcast and famous because of their lower position. I'm a mirza as my mother was a sayyida.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

How many of his descendants still exist

A massive number one would assume because of how those things work.

You'd be right. It's impossible to identify the exact number or test all of those who make such a claim. The number could be anywhere from several hundred thousand to millions.