The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Greate Boston]

Ok but almost none of the "Historical" Facts mentioned in Quran are actually historically accurate, especially if we accept some of the more modern discoveries. (A lot of them are either flanderizations wrapped in propaganda, and some are flat out lies that people protested against even at the time, see the "female babies were buried alive" myth)

Are you trolling or something? The Quran is 100% factual, written word by word as dictated by God.

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

[Jolthig]

Are you trolling or something? The Quran is 100% factual, written word by word as dictated by God.

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

This is why I think you're the Richard Dawkins of NSG or rather here.

But I have my rational reasons for why I think the Quran is consistent and the word of God. See my rebuttal to Cuprum in my "allegations refuted" Factbook for why I believe so

[Jolthig]

Pilarcraft:

Ok but almost none of the "Historical" Facts mentioned in Quran are actually historically accurate, especially if we accept some of the more modern discoveries. (A lot of them are either flanderizations wrapped in propaganda, and some are flat out lies that people protested against even at the time, see the "female babies were buried alive" myth)

(my post was accidentally posted so it was incomplete so I added more details)

Modern discoveries by whom? Modern Muslims scholars are convinced that what you said is not a myth but rather it has evidence from history. (Life of muhammad by Mirza Bashirideen Mahmood Ahmad)

[A m e n r i a]

Are you trolling or something? The Quran is 100% factual, written word by word as dictated by God.

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

[Jolthig]

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

And if you are willing to read Pilarcraft, in my rebuttal to Cuprum back in April, I've demonstrated evidence of why the Quran is the word of God.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

Actually Prophet Muhammad SAWS had others write them down for him because he was illiterate.

[Greate Boston]

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

It's kinda obvious you're not even informed in the Islamic mythos you're failing to defend. You know neither of how Quran was compiled, nor the process it took for Muhammad to get verses from god. I'd start a debate with you over it, but given the rest of your statement, I don't think you're actually capable of thinking in the capacity required for actual debate. I'll leave it to other more patient fellows who frequent this thread instead.

[The Eternal Aulus]

Salaam aleykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh, I've been busy these days, how's everyone?

[A m e n r i a]

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

Actually Prophet Muhammad SAWS had others write them down for him because he was illiterate.

He was illiterate until Gabriel taught him with Al-Alaq. Considering the fact that it was the first verse ever, don't you think Muhammad would've been literate by the time other verses came?

[Kowani]

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

The Qu’ran comes directly from God. But how do you know that? It says so right here in the Qu’ran!

Circular Logic Level-100

[The Eternal Aulus]

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

The Qu’ran comes directly from God. But how do you know that? It says so right here in the Qu’ran!

Circular Logic Level-100

How can you trust your brain as a valid source of knowledge?

Cause your brain says so

[Kowani]

The Qu’ran comes directly from God. But how do you know that? It says so right here in the Qu’ran!

Circular Logic Level-100

How can you trust your brain as a valid source of knowledge?

Cause your brain says so

Point. However, the difference is, there’s no real viable alternative with which to live life. Yeah, I could distrust my brain, but it wouldn’t change anything anything about input.

[Genivaria]

The Qu’ran comes directly from God. But how do you know that? It says so right here in the Qu’ran!

Circular Logic Level-100

How can you trust your brain as a valid source of knowledge?

Cause your brain says so

The brain is not a 'source' of knowledge.
It is more like a sponge that absorbs it.

[Genivaria]

Friendly piece of advice, never say that in public again, especially not on a debate. It's an equivalent of young earth creationism.

And lol no. I don't like being this blunt in my criticism, and I mean no offense to any Muslims here for my follow up statement, but Quran's almost consistently a crudely written fanfiction of the "canon" of Jewish (and Christian) religious traditions (religious laws, religious mythology, etc.) with a little Arab and Roman Paganism and Zoroastrianism mixed in for the heck of it. By crudely written fanfiction, I mean if the author of My Immortal decided to rewrite Harry Potter, and had a cult of followers that killed everyone who insulted the author, or their "work of art". And I am not saying this because I recently met a person who threatened to kill me for calling My Immortal a piece of crap, No siree bob.

Btw, saying "it's 100% true and word of god" automatically erases you from any debate.

> Prophet Muhammad gets verses from God via Gabriel
> Prophet Muhammad writes them down
> The verses are compiled into the Quran we have now

That's how the Quran was made. Never mind if it has similarities with other pieces of writing. The fact is, it's not something thought up by a human, despite being written by one, which is why it's 100% factual.

Occam's Razor says doubtful.

[Greate Boston]

The Qu’ran comes directly from God. But how do you know that? It says so right here in the Qu’ran!

Circular Logic Level-100

How can you trust your brain as a valid source of knowledge?

Cause your brain says so

I'm trying to imagine an alternate universe where that argument actually make any sense. I haven't managed to find one yet.
but Seriously? Your brain isn't a "source" of knowledge. It's functions like the search option in your computer (that only has access to your specific folder). Unlike the Quran. which is supposed to be the computer.

[Jolthig]

Salaam aleykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh, I've been busy these days, how's everyone?

Walakium salaam. I've been busy too.

[Jolthig]

Wow this thread turned into a mess during my sleep-in (to make up for my college days).

Amin, congratulations, you aren't the one that caused controversy this time and some atheists jumped in here.

[Jolthig]

How can you trust your brain as a valid source of knowledge?

Cause your brain says so

The brain is not a 'source' of knowledge.
It is more like a sponge that absorbs it.

True. Though I think Aulus was just mocking Kowani's argument.

Brothers, let's not let our rage consume us. I used to let that happen to me till I learned to argue rationally and to use Quranic guidance.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Salaam aleykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuh, I've been busy these days, how's everyone?

وعليكم السلام ورحمة الله وبركاته
I'm doing alright, AlHamdulillah

Wow this thread turned into a mess during my sleep-in (to make up for my college days).

Amin, congratulations, you aren't the one that caused controversy this time and some atheists jumped in here.

Ey akhi, guilty as charged

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Actually Prophet Muhammad SAWS had others write them down for him because he was illiterate.

He was illiterate until Gabriel taught him with Al-Alaq. Considering the fact that it was the first verse ever, don't you think Muhammad would've been literate by the time other verses came?

Tbh, I find it kind of odd to believe that one of the most successful merchants in Arabia would have been unable to read or write. Especially considering Arabic at the time did not use the Arabic numerals we know today and instead represented numbers using their letters, as was common in Semitic languages.

[Greate Boston]

He was illiterate until Gabriel taught him with Al-Alaq. Considering the fact that it was the first verse ever, don't you think Muhammad would've been literate by the time other verses came?

Tbh, I find it kind of odd to believe that one of the most successful merchants in Arabia would have been unable to read or write. Especially considering Arabic at the time did not use the Arabic numerals we know today and instead represented numbers using their letters, as was common in Semitic languages.

It's actually highly likely that by "literate" they meant more than "can read and write"... Because like, if we go by hadith, the number of "literate" people in Jahiliyya Arabia could be counted on two hands. (Abu Sufyan and Ali being of those few) and that's a really really low number for a society famous for their poetic tradition.

But then we know that Muhammad was the highest lackey of the greatest merchant of the greatest tribe in the entire peninsula who repeatedly traveled to, and conversed with, Roman and Persian (as well as local) Merchants in neighboring territories (without failing that much in his duties) so it's highly likely that like "buried your girls", the "Prophet was illiterate" was more of a myth than a truth. At least, in my opinion. I am not certain if he was, or was not, literate. Personally I'm still convinced it was Salman-e-Farsi trying to help a warlord unite Arabia under his banner than anything else.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Tbh, I find it kind of odd to believe that one of the most successful merchants in Arabia would have been unable to read or write. Especially considering Arabic at the time did not use the Arabic numerals we know today and instead represented numbers using their letters, as was common in Semitic languages.

It's actually highly likely that by "literate" they meant more than "can read and write"... Because like, if we go by hadith, the number of "literate" people in Jahiliyya Arabia could be counted on two hands. (Abu Sufyan and Ali being of those few) and that's a really really low number for a society famous for their poetic tradition.

But then we know that Muhammad was the highest lackey of the greatest merchant of the greatest tribe in the entire peninsula who repeatedly traveled to, and conversed with, Roman and Persian (as well as local) Merchants in neighboring territories (without failing that much in his duties) so it's highly likely that like "buried your girls", the "Prophet was illiterate" was more of a myth than a truth. At least, in my opinion. I am not certain if he was, or was not, literate. Personally I'm still convinced it was Salman-e-Farsi trying to help a warlord unite Arabia under his banner than anything else.

Yeah. I've always preferred the idea that he was "illiterate" in terms of scripture so he couldn't have "stolen" from the Jews and Christians. As unlikely as that is, it's at least more believable than the idea that he couldn't read or write at all.

[Jolthig]

I strongly disagree with both of you. There is plenty of evidence that Muhammad was illiterate. Not a single hadith says that Muhammad wrote during his entire lifetime. There are very few hadith that say he wrote. He may have most likely been able to write very few letters or words, but that's just it. His companions always knew he was an illiterate man. The evidence just doesn't add up to both of your assertions.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

I strongly disagree with both of you. There is plenty of evidence that Muhammad was illiterate. Not a single hadith says that Muhammad wrote during his entire lifetime. There are very few hadith that say he wrote. He may have most likely been able to write very few letters or words, but that's just it. His companions always knew he was an illiterate man. The evidence just doesn't add up to both of your assertions.

Prophet Muhammad in the last moment of his life asked his companion to give him a paper and pen in order to write down something in order that you won’t stray. But one of his companion rejected his request. (Sahih Muslim, Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, vol. 3, Book Al-Vasiyyah, chapter 5, p. 1259, Dar ‘Ihya al-Trath Arabi)

The Prophet himself read a letter from ‘Aynayh (Tafsir al-Qurtubi, Al-Qurtubi, vol. 13, p. 352; Al-Bahr ul-Mohit, Abu Hayyan Aundoloosi, Vol. 7, P.151 and some others)

In the Hudaybiyyah peace treaty, the Prophet himself wrote the treaty. (Alusi, Mahmud al-Alusi, Vol.21, p.5)

[Jolthig]

I strongly disagree with both of you. There is plenty of evidence that Muhammad was illiterate. Not a single hadith says that Muhammad wrote during his entire lifetime. There are very few hadith that say he wrote. He may have most likely been able to write very few letters or words, but that's just it. His companions always knew he was an illiterate man. The evidence just doesn't add up to both of your assertions.

Prophet Muhammad in the last moment of his life asked his companion to give him a paper and pen in order to write down something in order that you won’t stray. But one of his companion rejected his request. (Sahih Muslim, Muslim ibn al-Hajjaj, vol. 3, Book Al-Vasiyyah, chapter 5, p. 1259, Dar ‘Ihya al-Trath Arabi)

The Prophet himself read a letter from ‘Aynayh (Tafsir al-Qurtubi, Al-Qurtubi, vol. 13, p. 352; Al-Bahr ul-Mohit, Abu Hayyan Aundoloosi, Vol. 7, P.151 and some others)

In the Hudaybiyyah peace treaty, the Prophet himself wrote the treaty. (Alusi, Mahmud al-Alusi, Vol.21, p.5)

As I stated in my last post, I am not denying that he may have been able to read some letters and words, but for most of his life as evident by hadith themselves, he was illiterate. Had he not been illiterate, he would've written the hadith himself. This is why often, you see hadith narrated by companions (although from Muhammad) and not written by Muhammad himself.