The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Sahansahiye Iran]

I don't think you understand what a Salafi is. Salafism explicitly holds a belief in purely the zahir meaning of the Quran.

Yes, they're pretty strict in their interpretations, I know.

Then what part of Jolthig's statement are you trying to dispute, exactly?

[Jolthig]

Every salafi I met so far is pretty strict in their views. Maybe it doesn't prove that all of them are like that, but certainly many are.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Oh c'mon, Sah. Living 7th Century conditions is cool. We'll be like the Amish and we'll sing "Amish Paradise" as we ride our camels to the supermarket on an extreme busy day in the city.

Visiting the Amish in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, was fun, but I don't think I would want to live there.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Not in this case, no.

No it can't.

http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/unders ... ml?start=9, https://legacy.quran.com/2/190, https://legacy.quran.com/9/36, https://legacy.quran.com/2/191, https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/223, https://sunnah.com/bukhari/56/224, https://sunnah.com/abudawud/15/137, https://sunnah.com/urn/409900

That doesn't make theocracy bad.

Iirc there's a verse where the Bible says that Jesus (AS) ssid "I've come to complete the Old laws and give a new one" (a lot of paraphrasing here)
Here it is: https://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm

Might wanna check yourself there on your claim that theocracy isn't bad. You shared an article with me not too long ago that said a khalifat isn't necessarily a theocracy.

The Khaleefah is not appointed by Allah rather he is elected by the Muslims and assumes authority through the contract of baya. The Khilafah is not a theocracy. Its legislation is not restricted to religious and moral codes that neglect the problems of society.

Link is in your quote from last week:

The physical law is part of the Shari'ah. There is no separation of masjid and state in Al-Islam.

Idk, but we have exwmples. And I think this website helps explaining.

That doesn't sound right. The Khilafah is supposed to rule based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Even whatever isn't discussed from them directly, we can still base our rulings indirectly from them. That still makes them a theocracy, and just because not every single thing isn't based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah doesn't mean it's not theocratic. I disagree with that sentence.

[Jolthig]

Might wanna check yourself there on your claim that theocracy isn't bad. You shared an article with me not too long ago that said a khalifat isn't necessarily a theocracy.



Link is in your quote from last week:

That doesn't sound right. The Khilafah is supposed to rule based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Even whatever isn't discussed from them directly, we can still base our rulings indirectly from them. That still makes them a theocracy, and just because not every single thing isn't based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah doesn't mean it's not theocratic. I disagree with that sentence.

It says it in the article that you showed me last week. These aren't both of our words of course, but the words presented by the article that you shared with me to according to you, help explain an Islamic theocracy/khalifat despite it saying it isn't. Only pointing this out because I don't think you realize at times some of the things this article said. Not trying to pick on you, but rather trying to help you out.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

That doesn't sound right. The Khilafah is supposed to rule based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Even whatever isn't discussed from them directly, we can still base our rulings indirectly from them. That still makes them a theocracy, and just because not every single thing isn't based on the Holy Qur'an and Sunnah doesn't mean it's not theocratic. I disagree with that sentence.

It says it in the article that you showed me last week. These aren't both of our words of course, but the words presented by the article that you shared with me to according to you, help explain an Islamic theocracy/khalifat despite it saying it isn't. Only pointing this out because I don't think you realize at times some of the things this article said. Not trying to pick on you, but rather trying to help you out.

Nah, you're alright. But like I said, I disagree that a Khilafah is not a theocracy. Not gonna try to defend something I don't even agree on.

[Jolthig]

It says it in the article that you showed me last week. These aren't both of our words of course, but the words presented by the article that you shared with me to according to you, help explain an Islamic theocracy/khalifat despite it saying it isn't. Only pointing this out because I don't think you realize at times some of the things this article said. Not trying to pick on you, but rather trying to help you out.

Nah, you're alright. But like I said, I disagree that a Khilafah is not a theocracy. Not gonna try to defend something I don't even agree on.

True though you did share that article. Perhaps next time say, "I don't agree with everything it says, but it's mostly truthful"?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

It's not even "oh, I disgree", it's more like "that's just incorrect".

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Nah, you're alright. But like I said, I disagree that a Khilafah is not a theocracy. Not gonna try to defend something I don't even agree on.

True though you did share that article. Perhaps next time say, "I don't agree with everything it says, but it's mostly truthful"?

True. And reread my links too lol >w<

[Jolthig]

It's not even "oh, I disgree", it's more like "that's just incorrect".

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying or I'm not specifying, but the article you shared last week was according to you, to help me understand khalifat:

Is spiritual Shariah not enough for us, akhi?

The physical law is part of the Shari'ah. There is no separation of masjid and state in Al-Islam.

Besides, how will that work?

Idk, but we have exwmples. And I think this website helps explaining.

The bottom quote that links to the site.

The passage where it says, "A khalifa is not a theocracy." Is in there.

The reason I brought this up because we had a similar conversation about theocracy last week, and I was criticizing the way you argue about theocracy.

EDIT: nevermind you reread them

[Kubumba Tribe]

It's not even "oh, I disgree", it's more like "that's just incorrect".

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying or I'm not specifying, but the article you shared last week was according to you, to help me understand khalifat:

The physical law is part of the Shari'ah. There is no separation of masjid and state in Al-Islam.

Idk, but we have exwmples. And I think this website helps explaining.

The bottom quote that links to the site.

The passage where it says, "A khalifa is not a theocracy." Is in there.

The reason I brought this up because we had a similar conversation about theocracy last week, and I was criticizing the way you argue about theocracy.

EDIT: nevermind you reread them

It wasn't arguing about theocracy, we were debating about physical Shari'ah.

[Jolthig]

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying or I'm not specifying, but the article you shared last week was according to you, to help me understand khalifat:


The bottom quote that links to the site.

The passage where it says, "A khalifa is not a theocracy." Is in there.

The reason I brought this up because we had a similar conversation about theocracy last week, and I was criticizing the way you argue about theocracy.

EDIT: nevermind you reread them

It wasn't arguing about theocracy, we were debating about physical Shari'ah.

Alright.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Shamail Muhammadiyyah

عن سَعِيدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الْمَخْزُومِيُّ، وَغَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ، قَالُوا‏:‏ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرِ بْنِ مُطْعِمٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ‏:‏ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏:‏ إِنَّ لِي أَسْمَاءً، أَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، وَأَنَا أَحْمَدُ، وَأَنَا الْمَاحِي الَّذِي يَمْحُو اللَّهُ بِيَ الْكُفْرَ، وَأَنَا الْحَاشِرُ الَّذِي يُحْشَرُ النَّاسُ عَلَى قَدَمِي، وَأَنَا الْعَاقِبُ الَّذِي لَيْسَ بَعْدَهُ نَبِيٌّ‏.‏

Jubayr bin Mut'im Radiyallahu 'Anhu says:
"Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam said: 'I have many names, I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am Maahi (the one who erases-eradicates) through whom Allah has eradicated kufr. I am Haashir, whom Allah will raise first on the day of qiyaamah, the whole ummah will be judged before my feet on the day of qiyaamah. I am 'Aaqib (the one who comes last), and that 'Aaqib, after whom there shall be no other nabi'".

English : Book 51, Hadith 360
Arabic : Book 51, Hadith 366

[Jolthig]

Shamail Muhammadiyyah

عن سَعِيدُ بْنُ عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ الْمَخْزُومِيُّ، وَغَيْرُ وَاحِدٍ، قَالُوا‏:‏ حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ جُبَيْرِ بْنِ مُطْعِمٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، قَالَ‏:‏ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم‏:‏ إِنَّ لِي أَسْمَاءً، أَنَا مُحَمَّدٌ، وَأَنَا أَحْمَدُ، وَأَنَا الْمَاحِي الَّذِي يَمْحُو اللَّهُ بِيَ الْكُفْرَ، وَأَنَا الْحَاشِرُ الَّذِي يُحْشَرُ النَّاسُ عَلَى قَدَمِي، وَأَنَا الْعَاقِبُ الَّذِي لَيْسَ بَعْدَهُ نَبِيٌّ‏.‏

Jubayr bin Mut'im Radiyallahu 'Anhu says:
"Rasulullah Sallallahu 'Alayhi Wasallam said: 'I have many names, I am Muhammad, I am Ahmad, I am Maahi (the one who erases-eradicates) through whom Allah has eradicated kufr. I am Haashir, whom Allah will raise first on the day of qiyaamah, the whole ummah will be judged before my feet on the day of qiyaamah. I am 'Aaqib (the one who comes last), and that 'Aaqib, after whom there shall be no other nabi'".

English : Book 51, Hadith 360
Arabic : Book 51, Hadith 366

Subhanallah.

[Jolthig]

Shama'il Muhammadiya is a great source of Hadith on the life and traditions of Muhammad (saw)

[Negarakita]

I'm still around, just got not much to say atm

[Jolthig]

I'm still around, just got not much to say atm

I see.

Good hearing from you.

[Kubumba Tribe]

In Al-Islam, being homosexual isn't the punishable crime; homosexual sex is the punishable crime if there's 4 witnesses.

Or if a confession is made 4 times.

Daleel (evidence)?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

And what is the punishment for this 'crime'?

iirc, last time, Amin was advocating for us to be whipped for pre-marital sex.

Correct, but "pre-marital" doesn't really exist in this context because homosexual marriage wouldn't be recognized in Al-Islam. Also, you're not Muslim, so you shouldn't be saying "us".

iirc, last time, Amin was advocating for us to be whipped for pre-marital sex.

Kinky.

How?

[Genivaria]

iirc, last time, Amin was advocating for us to be whipped for pre-marital sex.

Correct, but "pre-marital" doesn't really exist in this context because homosexual marriage wouldn't be recognized in Al-Islam. Also, you're not Muslim, so you shouldn't be saying "us".

Kinky.

How?

So is this the 'moderate Islamism' that doesn't deserve to be destroyed?

[Jolthig]

iirc, last time, Amin was advocating for us to be whipped for pre-marital sex.

Correct, but "pre-marital" doesn't really exist in this context because homosexual marriage wouldn't be recognized in Al-Islam. Also, you're not Muslim, so you shouldn't be saying "us".

Kinky.

How?

Amin, Sah used "us" in the context of the LGBT community. Not Muslims.

He is bisexual

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Correct, but "pre-marital" doesn't really exist in this context because homosexual marriage wouldn't be recognized in Al-Islam. Also, you're not Muslim, so you shouldn't be saying "us".

How?

So is this the 'moderate Islamism' that doesn't deserve to be destroyed?

Yeah.
By "moderate Islamism" I mean "the type that doesn't advocate for terrorism or other un-Islamic ways to bring about an Islamic government".

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Correct, but "pre-marital" doesn't really exist in this context because homosexual marriage wouldn't be recognized in Al-Islam. Also, you're not Muslim, so you shouldn't be saying "us".

How?

Amin, Sah used "us" in the context of the LGBT community. Not Muslims.

He is bisexual

Ok.
Still, it wouldn't apply to him.

[Genivaria]

So is this the 'moderate Islamism' that doesn't deserve to be destroyed?

Yeah.
By "moderate Islamism" I mean "the type that doesn't advocate for terrorism or other un-Islamic ways to bring about an Islamic government".

So then even moderate Islamists are a threat, just a more sinister one.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Amin, Sah used "us" in the context of the LGBT community. Not Muslims.

He is bisexual

Ok.
Still, it wouldn't apply to him.

No. I would just be punished for being an apostate, right? Unless, of course, I "repented" in which case, I'm now going to be whipped for having sex with other men, right? A rock and a hard place, if you ask me.