The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Lost Memories]

Islam says that only God exists (monotheism) and that faith in One God is the pure state of humanity. Polytheism is a result of disbelief or usually the result of this world and its deceivement.

Hmm, guess I'll have to rephrase the question in a different way.

What are the ills which come from polytheism?
Disbelief and deceivement are what lead astray to polytheism, but once one falls or is into polytheism, are there any bad effects from it? Or is it just a wrong idea while having no positive nor negative effects in itself?

What can islam say about the ills of a bad choice(polytheism in this case), looking past the reasons for why one falls in them, and by focusing more on the effects?


To make a silly comparison. It's as if i'm asking why stealing is bad. Most of your answers have been, because the law says it's bad. To which I must reiterate, what can the law say about why stealing is bad?

Or, to get back the the verses which were pointed to me at the start.
The figure of the throne is repeated some times, as members of islam, if you had to guess, why is a throne needed? What happens without a throne?

[Jolthig]

Wood and white have a beef with one another?

They used to even debate togheter, but David Wood created a series which was more of a mockumentary than anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtS2T8j ... cHY1CR50IZ

To save someone the thrawl, David Wood has a tendency to create mocking videos of Islam every time some mass killing, terrorist attack, or other element of the Islamic world takes place. This particular series was inspired by the Texas gallery shooters. The very actors of it are supposed to represent said figures in an alternative universe where they go into Islam and find certain problems, but by zeal seek to overcome them, which is never an ideal way of dealing with said problems, but change before doing something really bad.

This was a second response by James White and as much as I dislike admitting it. David Wood's response while having some valid points ignored the overarching points to a very shallow degree and it just continued on. There are probably 10-20 vidoes on the issue I could share but these are more at the heart of the matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfTKP7DbrBs&t=2157s

Interesting. I'll have a look at those sometime. Thanks for the links

[Jolthig]

Islam says that only God exists (monotheism) and that faith in One God is the pure state of humanity. Polytheism is a result of disbelief or usually the result of this world and its deceivement.

Hmm, guess I'll have to rephrase the question in a different way.

What are the ills which come from polytheism?
Disbelief and deceivement are what lead astray to polytheism, but once one falls or is into polytheism, are there any bad effects from it? Or is it just a wrong idea while having no positive nor negative effects in itself?

What can islam say about the ills of a bad choice(polytheism in this case), looking past the reasons for why one falls in them, and by focusing more on the effects?


To make a silly comparison. It's as if i'm asking why stealing is bad. Most of your answers have been, because the law says it's bad. To which I must reiterate, what can the law say about why stealing is bad?

Or, to get back the the verses which were pointed to me at the start.
The figure of the throne is repeated some times, as members of islam, if you had to guess, why is a throne needed? What happens without a throne?

I'll answer your questions.

As the Quran states from the very beginning in Surah al-Fatiha, the Quran says, Alhamdulilah ir Rabbil Alamin ("All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of the world's"). So from the very beginning, the Quran declares Allah to be the sole creator of the universe with no other God involved.

Then, it states in 1:5 Eya-kana-budu wa eyakan-esteen (Thee alone do we worship and thee alone do we ask for help). Once again, other gods are denied and it only Allah alone who is the God we pray to.

Polytheism is bad because those so called Gods do not exist so they do not answer the prayers of polytheists according to the Quran. Now, this may not be a good reason to a devoted pagan such as a Hindu who does meditation rituals to attain nearness to Krishna. Some Hindus claim to have actually encountered him and they know he's real. But yet, what do they use in these rituals? Some use psychedelic drugs which produce hallucinations that may appear to be quite real, but only an illusion. I don't know further more what happens in those experiences other than what I just said.

Another reason of why polytheism is bad is because as the Quran says, if there were several gods, we would see disorder in the universe because the gods cannot agree to how they manage the laws of the universe and they have different ideas from one another. It is a disorder that is at an unimaginable level.

Some in here may see the universe already has disorder by the way of how the planet orbit the sun. Or of how there's several supernovas or a black hole tearing apart an object. My reply is that these are simply allowed by God to happen as it is his Law for this universe that these things happen. As the Quran says, the planets orbit until an appointed term. Similarly, the sun orbits the center of the Galaxy until an appointed term, and the moon orbits the earth until an appointed term. Scientists say the moon is slowly moving away from us and will eventually become possibly its own planet.

As for stealing, the Quran doesn't exactly say why it is bad. It only says to cut off the hand of the criminal who steals.

But as logic tells us, stealing is bad because you're taking an item which belongs to a person without permission. The person to whom the item belongs to has this selfish desire for that object. Selfishness and wanting to keep objects unless they give permission to the person to take it is why stealing is viewed as bad. I'm not using selfishness in a negative way in this context, but rather, selfishness can be viewed as good a lot as much as it is viewed mostly as bad. There are times we need to be selfish in certain situations.

Hope this answers your question and if I missed anything, let me know.

Are you pagan or just love pagan mythology?

[Kubumba Tribe]

Islamically I can say that Christianity is an Islamic heresy

How does that work, when Christianity predates Islam?

Actually, it technically doesn't. That's actually the other way around.

[Frievolk]

How does that work, when Christianity predates Islam?

Actually, it technically doesn't. That's actually the other way around.

Chronologically, Islam does not predate Christianity or Judaism. Stop using the canon timeline of your spin-off, tyvm.

[Jolthig]

Actually, it technically doesn't. That's actually the other way around.

Chronologically, Islam does not predate Christianity or Judaism. Stop using the canon timeline of your spin-off, tyvm.

Every prophet was a Muslim. Not in the sense of Islam under the Quranic law or the label of the religion, but rather, they fulfully submitted themselves to the will of God.

Not a single verse in the Torah says Moses was a Jew, yet he was because "Jew" was a later term for the faith Moses founded with the law of the Torah.

Similarly same with Jesus. He was a Jew but also a Muslim. Which could even be argued from the gospels themselves.

[Proctopeo]

Actually, it technically doesn't. That's actually the other way around.

Chronologically, Islam does not predate Christianity or Judaism. Stop using the canon timeline of your spin-off, tyvm.

Specifically, Judaism dates back to 3500 BC or so, Christianity around the first century AD, and Islam around the 7th.

[Jolthig]

Chronologically, Islam does not predate Christianity or Judaism. Stop using the canon timeline of your spin-off, tyvm.

Specifically, Judaism dates back to 3500 BC or so, Christianity around the first century AD, and Islam around the 7th.

The Islam we know of today is the one under Quranic law.

[Frievolk]

Chronologically, Islam does not predate Christianity or Judaism. Stop using the canon timeline of your spin-off, tyvm.

Every prophet was a Muslim. Not in the sense of Islam under the Quranic law or the label of the religion, but rather, they fulfully submitted themselves to the will of God.

Not a single verse in the Torah says Moses was a Jew, yet he was because "Jew" was a later term for the faith Moses founded with the law of the Torah.

Similarly same with Jesus. He was a Jew but also a Muslim. Which could even be argued from the gospels themselves.

But that is only canon if you accept the fanon reboot that is Islam as the Abrahamic Religions' canon. Christianity and Judaism (which predate it by like, entire centuries) do not see that as canon. I'm not going to accept the stuff that the religion that came last tells me about the religions before it when they repeatedly say "that is not true".

[Proctopeo]

Specifically, Judaism dates back to 3500 BC or so, Christianity around the first century AD, and Islam around the 7th.

The Islam we know of today is the one under Quranic law.

The only form in which "Islam" existed prior to the 7th century was in the technical sense, in that people submitted to God, which is, well, the name of the religion. But Islam as a religion didn't exist until the 7th century.

[Jolthig]

Every prophet was a Muslim. Not in the sense of Islam under the Quranic law or the label of the religion, but rather, they fulfully submitted themselves to the will of God.

Not a single verse in the Torah says Moses was a Jew, yet he was because "Jew" was a later term for the faith Moses founded with the law of the Torah.

Similarly same with Jesus. He was a Jew but also a Muslim. Which could even be argued from the gospels themselves.

But that is only canon if you accept the fanon reboot that is Islam as the Abrahamic Religions' canon. Christianity and Judaism (which predate it by like, entire centuries) do not see that as canon. I'm not going to accept the stuff that the religion that came last tells me about the religions before it when they repeatedly say "that is not true".

My point is "Jew/Judaism" is a later label. It could even be argued from the Bible itself.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Specifically, Judaism dates back to 3500 BC or so, Christianity around the first century AD, and Islam around the 7th.

The Islam we know of today is the one under Quranic law.

^This. Al-Islam in its final form is dated to the 7th century, but Al-Islam the submission and obedience to Allah SWT has lasted since the creation of the angels.

[Jolthig]

The Islam we know of today is the one under Quranic law.

The only form in which "Islam" existed prior to the 7th century was in the technical sense, in that people submitted to God, which is, well, the name of the religion. But Islam as a religion didn't exist until the 7th century.

We can agree on this.

The Islam we know of today is the one under Quranic law.

^This. Al-Islam in its final form is dated to the 7th century, but Al-Islam the submission and obedience to Allah SWT has lasted since the creation of the angels.

Exactly

[Frievolk]

But that is only canon if you accept the fanon reboot that is Islam as the Abrahamic Religions' canon. Christianity and Judaism (which predate it by like, entire centuries) do not see that as canon. I'm not going to accept the stuff that the religion that came last tells me about the religions before it when they repeatedly say "that is not true".

My point is "Jew/Judaism" is a later label. It could even be argued from the Bible itself.

Just because the fans of a franchise didn't put a name on themselves until later doesn't mean they did not have the identity of a fan until then though. (Sorry, I know I'm using the fan/fandom analogy, but its the only way I can go on with this without dropping an f-bomb every so often )
Like, I get that Muslims like to assume that while they came *last*, they were the ones who got it first, but there is no evidence that Islam is anything more than a fanon spin-off apart from what the Muslims themselves say.

[Jolthig]

My point is "Jew/Judaism" is a later label. It could even be argued from the Bible itself.

Just because the fans of a franchise didn't put a name on themselves until later doesn't mean they did not have the identity of a fan until then though. (Sorry, I know I'm using the fan/fandom analogy, but its the only way I can go on with this without dropping an f-bomb every so often )

That's interesting because I like to use that terminology when we see fanatics fighting one another. It's kinda like how Star Wars fans get angry when a new movie comes out. It's the same with when a new prophet comes.

Anyway, all Abrahamic faiths lay emphasis on the worship of God. Total submission. Which in the sense is "Muslim".

Like, I get that Muslims like to assume that while they came *last*, they were the ones who got it first, but there is no evidence that Islam is anything more than a fanon spin-off apart from what the Muslims themselves say.

Or all the Abrahamic faiths were revealed by the same God?

Otherwise, in your view, sure. I'll agree we're the only ones that say the opposite

[Lost Memories]

Polytheism is bad because those so called Gods do not exist so they do not answer the prayers of polytheists according to the Quran. Now, this may not be a good reason to a devoted pagan such as a Hindu who does meditation rituals to attain nearness to Krishna. Some Hindus claim to have actually encountered him and they know he's real. But yet, what do they use in these rituals? Some use psychedelic drugs which produce hallucinations that may appear to be quite real, but only an illusion. I don't know further more what happens in those experiences other than what I just said.

Another reason of why polytheism is bad is because as the Quran says, if there were several gods, we would see disorder in the universe because the gods cannot agree to how they manage the laws of the universe and they have different ideas from one another. It is a disorder that is at an unimaginable level.

Hope this answers your question and if I missed anything, let me know.

Thanks for this other answer.

My aim with that question was to compare the answers given by christians and muslims, and see how much difference is there. (i'm catholic)
The reasoning about universal order is an answer I've heard before from some christians too.
The reasoning about directing faith and prayers to something fake is also a common answer for christians.

My take on the question of why polytheism is bad, or inferior to monotheism, is that polytheism is an exaltation of human division and tribalism or sectarianism, or at best a passive system of belief which adapts over, and so indulges, human divisions. Human division is bad because it raises the chances of conflict and can lead to clashes of culture/civility.
An other answer is that polytheism is prone to be used to justify human incompetence. By faulting any given random god for anything bad happening, which is only slightly different from believing in fate and luck.

[The Eternal Aulus]

Thanks for this other answer.

My aim with that question was to compare the answers given by christians and muslims, and see how much difference is there. (i'm catholic)

In that case, I might be of help. I study all major religions for my studies plus my students (teacher in comparative religion/philosophy here) and I happen to be a student on a Catholic university.

My take on the question of why polytheism is bad, or inferior to monotheism, is that polytheism is an exaltation of human division and tribalism or sectarianism, or at best a passive system of belief which adapts over, and so indulges, human divisions. Human division is bad because it raises the chances of conflict and can lead to clashes of culture/civility.
An other answer is that polytheism is prone to be used to justify human incompetence. By faulting any given random god for anything bad happening, which is only slightly different from believing in fate and luck.

This somewhat reminds me of Taylor with his, somewhat, Darwinistic approach to religion (ie it all started with animism, evolved into polytheism and then into monotheism).
Nevertheless, humans have the tendency to form social groups which do separate one from each other thus division is inevitable. See different denominations in Islam, Christianity, Judaism and so forth.

[Kubumba Tribe]

https://youtu.be/DIH5p60T6aE (watch 0:35 - 0:53)
This is what I mean by "tapping/patting". If y'all think this is abusive, then y'all have a reaaaaaaaally loose definition of the word.

[Jolthig]

https://youtu.be/DIH5p60T6aE (watch 0:35 - 0:53)
This is what I mean by "tapping/patting". If y'all think this is abusive, then y'all have a reaaaaaaaally loose definition of the word.

LOL!

Sorry, just laughing cuz that won't convince our opponents. They'll mock you for confusing a non Muslim video with a topic that we discussed so many times.

[Kubumba Tribe]

https://youtu.be/DIH5p60T6aE (watch 0:35 - 0:53)
This is what I mean by "tapping/patting". If y'all think this is abusive, then y'all have a reaaaaaaaally loose definition of the word.

LOL!

Sorry, just laughing cuz that won't convince our opponents. They'll mock you for confusing a non Muslim video with a topic that we discussed so many times.

Yooooooooo stop making me laaaaaaauuuugh

[Jolthig]

LOL!

Sorry, just laughing cuz that won't convince our opponents. They'll mock you for confusing a non Muslim video with a topic that we discussed so many times.

Yooooooooo stop making me laaaaaaauuuugh

[Jolthig]

As stated early on in the thread, we should discuss a new poll. Any ideas?

[Jolthig]

I have a lot of respect for Ahmadiyya. Are you in the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community or in the Lahore Ahmadiyya Movement in Islam?

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

Okay. The larger of the two groups. I believe there are also several others, but they are extremely small.

[Jolthig]

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community.

Okay. The larger of the two groups. I believe there are also several others, but they are extremely small.

Correct. They're some khalifa claimants that say Mirza Masroor Ahmad isn't the true khalifa but they themselves are, and some say that Mirza Bashirideen Mahmood Ahmad, who was the second khalifa of the AMC, say he wasn't the Promised reformer, but they themselves are.