The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Jolthig]

Do you ever get moments where you feel like you've converted again to the faith even though you're already part of it at the same time? It's obviously not a literal conversion, but rather reenergized spirituality and passion.

I for sure have. Lately, I've had an epiphany that I need to take my salats more seriously and be more serious in my conduct with people. And to be more humane.

[Azadistan-land of the free]

Do you ever get moments where you feel like you've converted again to the faith even though you're already part of it at the same time? It's obviously not a literal conversion, but rather reenergized spirituality and passion.

I for sure have. Lately, I've had an epiphany that I need to take my salats more seriously and be more serious in my conduct with people. And to be more humane.

i get epiphanies like that as well yes.
We should thank Allah for them.

[Jolthig]

So after watching a debate between David Wood and Canadian Sunni scholar, Shabir Ally, from three years ago, + my own engagement with Wood on Twitter, I don't understand how some Christians take him as an authentic source. That guy strawmans a lot in his arguments and is very childish. Ally called him out for that several times. Wood's arguments for his faith and why Muhammad (saw) is somehow false are a joke.

Near the end of the debate, Wood couldn't answer an argument about Surah al-Baqarah on one of its verse numbers, so he takes out his laptop in front of Ally, and googles a Hebrew number from the book of Genesis, and I busted out laughing.

[Jolthig]

ISLAMABAD – Prime Minister Imran Khan has reconstituted an 11- member Economic Advisory Council (EAC) as part of his economic reforms agenda on Saturday, dropping a hint of how the government would tackle the economic crisis.

The council contains renowned economists including Dr Farrukh Iqbal who serves as the Director of well reputed Institute of Business Administration (IBA).

Other members include Dr Ashfaque Hassan Khan, Dr Ijaz Nabi, Dr Abid Qaiyum Sulehri, Dr Asad Zaman, Dr Naved Hamed, Syed Salim Raza, Dr Atif R. Mian and others.

The members have been picked up from the private sector while the council will have official members as well including the Finance Minister Asad Umar.

The EAC is an informal forum not required under the constitution and is normally reconstituted every time a new finance minister assumes charge. It has been constituted days after the Economic Coordination Committee was set up under the chair of Asad Umar.

Source: https://en.dailypakistan.com.pk/headlin ... y-council/

And so, Prime Minister Imran Khan of Pakistan has selected Dr Atif R. Mian, an Ahmadi as one of his economic officials. Nice. There is some hope for Pakistani Ahmadis who are heavily looked down upon by the Sunni majority. Does this mean, oppression of Ahmadis will end? No, but I see this as a sign of progress. Interesting, that comes from Imran Khan who is well known for hanging out with several extremist groups with the goal of "preserving Khatam-ul-Nabiyeen". If Mian accepts this position, it would be very brave of him though he'll have to risk assassination by extremist groups.

[Kubumba Tribe]

He may not be the focal figure in Islam, but he is considered the greatest of the prophets and the messiah.

More so than Muhammad?

https://legacy.quran.com/2/136

More so than Muhammad?

Yes. Muhammad is considered the "Seal of the Prophets" (i.e. the last one, and the one to deliver the final revelation of God), but Christ is the one who will lead God's armies at the end of days.

True, but like 2:136 says, we don't see 'Isa (AS) as better than Muhammad (SAWS) and vive versa.

Islam isn't a Christian heresy. It's a completely separate religion.

Christ isn't even the focal figure in Islam.

Many Christians, such as St. John of Damascus, would disagree with you. The Quran claims to have been received by Muhammad from the archangel Gabriel, several of the stories and genealogies from the Old Testament and New Testament are copied ad verbatim, the prophets that Muhammad claimed came before him are all Judeo-Christian, and other theological concepts such as Satan, the Day of Judgement, and eternal damnation are clearly the product of Christian influence. I don't see how one can argue that Islam isn't basically a form of Arianism that came around because Muhammad or his followers plagiarized the Christian Bible.

Then Christians are just Jewish heretics.

[Herskerstad]

So after watching a debate between David Wood and Canadian Sunni scholar, Shabir Ally, from three years ago, + my own engagement with Wood on Twitter, I don't understand how some Christians take him as an authentic source. That guy strawmans a lot in his arguments and is very childish. Ally called him out for that several times. Wood's arguments for his faith and why Muhammad (saw) is somehow false are a joke.

Near the end of the debate, Wood couldn't answer an argument about Surah al-Baqarah on one of its verse numbers, so he takes out his laptop in front of Ally, and googles a Hebrew number from the book of Genesis, and I busted out laughing.

David Wood is someone whom I rather personally like, but I do begrudgingly side with James White on the whole issue that has arisen in the internal ranks. Shabir Ally is easily the best Islamic debater in the west, but there are questions of his orthodoxy on a number of plains as contrary to his representation.

[Jolthig]

Islam isn't a Christian heresy. It's a completely separate religion.

Christ isn't even the focal figure in Islam.

Many Christians, such as St. John of Damascus, would disagree with you. The Quran claims to have been received by Muhammad from the archangel Gabriel, several of the stories and genealogies from the Old Testament and New Testament are copied ad verbatim, the prophets that Muhammad claimed came before him are all Judeo-Christian, and other theological concepts such as Satan, the Day of Judgement, and eternal damnation are clearly the product of Christian influence. I don't see how one can argue that Islam isn't basically a form of Arianism that came around because Muhammad or his followers plagiarized the Christian Bible.

Bro. There is no plagurism in the Quran. While some of its stories agree with the Bible, there are also stories that significantly disagree with the Bible.

So after watching a debate between David Wood and Canadian Sunni scholar, Shabir Ally, from three years ago, + my own engagement with Wood on Twitter, I don't understand how some Christians take him as an authentic source. That guy strawmans a lot in his arguments and is very childish. Ally called him out for that several times. Wood's arguments for his faith and why Muhammad (saw) is somehow false are a joke.

Near the end of the debate, Wood couldn't answer an argument about Surah al-Baqarah on one of its verse numbers, so he takes out his laptop in front of Ally, and googles a Hebrew number from the book of Genesis, and I busted out laughing.

David Wood is someone whom I rather personally like, but I do begrudgingly side with James White on the whole issue that has arisen in the internal ranks. Shabir Ally is easily the best Islamic debater in the west, but there are questions of his orthodoxy on a number of plains as contrary to his representation.

While I disagree with White, I admire him for his passion for his faith and researching manuscripts of the New Testament.

Yeah, someone told me Ally ascribes to the swoon theory which is what we Ahmadis believe in about Christ on the cross.

[Herskerstad]

While I disagree with White, I admire him for his passion for his faith and researching manuscripts of the New Testament.

James White is for the most part eminently fair, and makes me realise at times some of my more childish impulses even if I do feel he goes a bit far at times. David Wood is by no means a lightweight, but at times he spreads himself more wide than deep. His original target was atheism since that's where he came from, and I do believe we are only seeing his beginnings. But the feud with him and James White has been one of the things of this year I've liked the least.

Yeah, someone told me Ally ascribes to the swoon theory which is what we Ahmadis believe in about Christ on the cross.

That's one of them and I am familiar with it. Though we got sources for only something like 3 people that have survived a proper Roman Crucifixion, (post flagellation and being nailed) all of them early on the cross and with immediate medical aid and two whom died days after. Given that the authorities meant it at a death sentence it would be a very thorough thing, in particular given that the support was not added (normal Crucifixion tended to have leg support to allow for a slower death, it was removed because the Jewish High priests wanted him dead before sundown)which makes it more lethal. Should we not describe some sort of divine intersession it becomes a hard theory to take since he'd at the very least be up there for many hours.

Still, I do hope the world will be a better place for the Ahmadiyya. It's had quite a rough history.

[Jolthig]

While I disagree with White, I admire him for his passion for his faith and researching manuscripts of the New Testament.

James White is for the most part eminently fair, and makes me realise at times some of my more childish impulses even if I do feel he goes a bit far at times.

Yeah, white can get angry at times but mostly he's calm. He's Pretty funny too at times.

David is by no means a lightweight, but at times he spreads himself more wide than deep. His original target was atheism since that's where he came from, and I do believe we are only seeing his beginnings. But the feud with him and James White has been one of the things of this year I've liked the least.

Wood and white have a beef with one another?

That's one of them and I am familiar with it. Though we got sources for only something like 3 people that have survived a proper Roman Crucifixion, (post flagellation and being nailed) all of them early on the cross and with immediate medical aid and two whom died days after. Given that the authorities meant it at a death sentence it would be a very thorough thing, in particular given that the support was not added (normal Crucifixion tended to have leg support to allow for a slower death, it was removed because the Jewish High priests wanted him dead before sundown)which makes it more lethal. Should we not describe some sort of divine intersession it becomes a hard theory to take since he'd at the very least be up there for many hours.

Still, I do hope the world will be a better place for the Ahmadiyya. It's had quite a rough history.

Thanks.

There is evidence that Jesus did survive. Though had I not been tired, id expand more on my points.

Perhaps tomorrow

[Herskerstad]

Wood and white have a beef with one another?

They used to even debate togheter, but David Wood created a series which was more of a mockumentary than anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtS2T8j ... cHY1CR50IZ

To save someone the thrawl, David Wood has a tendency to create mocking videos of Islam every time some mass killing, terrorist attack, or other element of the Islamic world takes place. This particular series was inspired by the Texas gallery shooters. The very actors of it are supposed to represent said figures in an alternative universe where they go into Islam and find certain problems, but by zeal seek to overcome them, which is never an ideal way of dealing with said problems, but change before doing something really bad.

This was a second response by James White and as much as I dislike admitting it. David Wood's response while having some valid points ignored the overarching points to a very shallow degree and it just continued on. There are probably 10-20 vidoes on the issue I could share but these are more at the heart of the matter.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfTKP7DbrBs&t=2157s

[Lost Memories]

What is the islamic view of the importance of monotheism over polytheism?
If one had to make a comparison, why monotheism is better?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

What is the islamic view of the importance of monotheism over polytheism?
If one had to make a comparison, why monotheism is better?

Tawheed is VERY important in Al-Islam, it's 1 of the 5 pillars. It means that there is only 1 God worthy of worship, praise, sacrifice, love, etc. Allah (SWT) is he who created the Earth and the heavens and sent down Messengers (AS/SAWS) to guide humankind.

As for why tawheed (monotheism) is better than shirk (polytheism), I think these ayat explain it best: https://legacy.quran.com/17/42, https://legacy.quran.com/21/22, https://legacy.quran.com/23/91

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

What is the islamic view of the importance of monotheism over polytheism?
If one had to make a comparison, why monotheism is better?

Tawhid (the oneness of God) literally is the central belief of Islam

[Frievolk]

What is the islamic view of the importance of monotheism over polytheism?
If one had to make a comparison, why monotheism is better?

Tawheed is VERY important in Al-Islam, it's 1 of the 5 pillars. It means that there is only 1 God worthy of worship, praise, sacrifice, love, etc. Allah (SWT) is he who created the Earth and the heavens and sent down Messengers (AS/SAWS) to guide humankind.

As for why tawheed (monotheism) is better than shirk (polytheism), I think these ayat explain it best: https://legacy.quran.com/17/42, https://legacy.quran.com/21/22, https://legacy.quran.com/23/91

I wasn't aware you were a Shia. There are only three pillars in Islam. *cough*and all three are bullcrap*cough*

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Tawheed is VERY important in Al-Islam, it's 1 of the 5 pillars. It means that there is only 1 God worthy of worship, praise, sacrifice, love, etc. Allah (SWT) is he who created the Earth and the heavens and sent down Messengers (AS/SAWS) to guide humankind.

As for why tawheed (monotheism) is better than shirk (polytheism), I think these ayat explain it best: https://legacy.quran.com/17/42, https://legacy.quran.com/21/22, https://legacy.quran.com/23/91

I wasn't aware you were a Shia. There are only three pillars in Islam. *cough*and all three are bullcrap*cough*

WTF? There are five pillars of Sunni Islam - Shahadah (faith), Salah (prayer), Zakat (charity), Sawm (fasting), and Hajj (pilgrimage), and Shi'a islam has five Usul al-Din and ten Furu al-Din

[Frievolk]

I wasn't aware you were a Shia. There are only three pillars in Islam. *cough*and all three are bullcrap*cough*

WTF? There are five pillars of Sunni Islam - Shahadah (faith), Salah (prayer), Zakat (charity), Sawm (fasting), and Hajj (pilgrimage), and Shi'a islam has five Usul al-Din and ten Furu al-Din

The pillars are Tawhid, Nabuwwat, and Ma'ad. (monotheism, Muhammad as a prophet, and the afterlife)
Shia adds Imamat and Adl in the bunch (which mean the existence of the Imamate and of course Allah being a just entity) on which there is debate.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

WTF? There are five pillars of Sunni Islam - Shahadah (faith), Salah (prayer), Zakat (charity), Sawm (fasting), and Hajj (pilgrimage), and Shi'a islam has five Usul al-Din and ten Furu al-Din

The pillars are Tawhid, Nabuwwat, and Ma'ad. (monotheism, Muhammad as a prophet, and the afterlife)

I swear Shi'a Islam also follows Zakat (charity, the only pillar which isn't BS), Sawm (fasting during Ramadan) and Hajj?

[Frievolk]

The pillars are Tawhid, Nabuwwat, and Ma'ad. (monotheism, Muhammad as a prophet, and the afterlife)

I swear Shi'a Islam also follows Zakat (charity, the only pillar which isn't BS), Sawm (fasting during Ramadan) and Hajj?

Those aren't pillars though. There is a term for them, but from what I remember in the Hawza, they're not considered pillars in Twelver Shia, at the very least.

[Lost Memories]

What is the islamic view of the importance of monotheism over polytheism?
If one had to make a comparison, why monotheism is better?

Tawheed is VERY important in Al-Islam, it's 1 of the 5 pillars. It means that there is only 1 God worthy of worship, praise, sacrifice, love, etc. Allah (SWT) is he who created the Earth and the heavens and sent down Messengers (AS/SAWS) to guide humankind.

As for why tawheed (monotheism) is better than shirk (polytheism), I think these ayat explain it best: https://legacy.quran.com/17/42, https://legacy.quran.com/21/22, https://legacy.quran.com/23/91

Thanks for the answer.

Those verses seem to imply monotheism to be a development over polytheism, or that the natural conclusion of polytheism is reaching monotheism.
Or is there a deeped meaning to those verses?

[Frievolk]

EDIT: My study as a Twelver has failed me. Apparently, what the Shia consider pillars is different than what the Sunni consider Pillars. The Arkaan of Islam (ارکلن اسلام or Pillars of Islam) is a Sunni concept, and the Shia don't consider them Pillars.
What I refer to is the Principles of Religion, and for that I apologize to the thread. (I mean, they're still bullshit but sorry for the wrong terminology)

[The Eternal Aulus]

Tawheed is VERY important in Al-Islam, it's 1 of the 5 pillars. It means that there is only 1 God worthy of worship, praise, sacrifice, love, etc. Allah (SWT) is he who created the Earth and the heavens and sent down Messengers (AS/SAWS) to guide humankind.

As for why tawheed (monotheism) is better than shirk (polytheism), I think these ayat explain it best: https://legacy.quran.com/17/42, https://legacy.quran.com/21/22, https://legacy.quran.com/23/91

Thanks for the answer.

Those verses seem to imply monotheism to be a development over polytheism, or that the natural conclusion of polytheism is reaching monotheism.
Or is there a deeped meaning to those verses?

Well, most verses in the Quran were revelations to Muhammed saws from God when he did actions ie in the second verse a debate with polytheists. So it would be God talking to Muhammed saws.

Islam says that only God exists (monotheism) and that faith in One God is the pure state of humanity. Polytheism is a result of disbelief or usually the result of this world and its deceivement.

EDIT: My study as a Twelver has failed me. Apparently, what the Shia consider pillars is different than what the Sunni consider Pillars. The Arkaan of Islam (ارکلن اسلام or Pillars of Islam) is a Sunni concept, and the Shia don't consider them Pillars.
What I refer to is the Principles of Religion, and for that I apologize to the thread. (I mean, they're still bullshit but sorry for the wrong terminology)

That doesn't matter, we still learn and you're still Ayatollah Freivolk of all the Shias here I guess lmao. I've yet to encounter a Shia (weather ex shia or not) who has this knowledge.

Do you ever get moments where you feel like you've converted again to the faith even though you're already part of it at the same time? It's obviously not a literal conversion, but rather reenergized spirituality and passion.

I for sure have. Lately, I've had an epiphany that I need to take my salats more seriously and be more serious in my conduct with people. And to be more humane.

Yes, definitly.

[Frievolk]

EDIT: My study as a Twelver has failed me. Apparently, what the Shia consider pillars is different than what the Sunni consider Pillars. The Arkaan of Islam (ارکلن اسلام or Pillars of Islam) is a Sunni concept, and the Shia don't consider them Pillars.
What I refer to is the Principles of Religion, and for that I apologize to the thread. (I mean, they're still bullshit but sorry for the wrong terminology)

That doesn't matter, we still learn and you're still Ayatollah Freivolk of all the Shias here I guess lmao. I've yet to encounter a Shia (weather ex shia or not) who has this knowledge.

I don't know whether to be flattered or be insulted you called me a Sign of god

[The Eternal Aulus]

That doesn't matter, we still learn and you're still Ayatollah Freivolk of all the Shias here I guess lmao. I've yet to encounter a Shia (weather ex shia or not) who has this knowledge.

I don't know whether to be flattered or be insulted you called me a Sign of god

I'd make you Marja of all Iran lmao

[Frievolk]

I don't know whether to be flattered or be insulted you called me a Sign of god

I'd make you Marja of all Iran lmao

"Let the faithful know that I, the sole Marja of the Iranian peoples, hereby declare that nothing is haraam, go fucking wild."
*ten seconds later*
"OHHH. so that's why so many things are haraam"

[The Eternal Aulus]

I'd make you Marja of all Iran lmao

"Let the faithful know that I, the sole Marja of the Iranian peoples, hereby declare that nothing is haraam, go fucking wild."
*ten seconds later*
"OHHH. so that's why so many things are haraam"

A bit haram is kinda tamam?