The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You're seriously asking a Muslim why a nation that persecuted his brothers and sisters should die? like, that sounds like a self-explanatory question to me.

Point made, except for the Orthodox Jews. Then again idk much about them.

You would answer persecution with genocide? That is immoral and unacceptable.

Lol no where did I say anything about genocide in this thread.

[Conserative Morality]

Just because papal infallibility didn't exist doesn't mean church infallibility didn't exist, church infallibility, as put forward by Ecumenical Councils, has been accepted since the 4th century.

So if I found examples of council canon law along the same lines as Islamic law, you'd concede the point?

[United Muscovite Nations]

All of the Apostolic Churches have the same origins around the same time, none of them are older than each other except in the minds of overzealous followers who maintain the others didn't exist until communion broke off.

>> apostolic succession means all churches claiming it are as old as each other

Hot take, 1st century Lutheranism.

Not quite, but closer, there wasn't initially a unified church, but there were multiple churches that were in communion with each other, and these churches broke communion with each other, but none of them are really older than the others because they both rose up around the same time, like within decades of each other.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Just because papal infallibility didn't exist doesn't mean church infallibility didn't exist, church infallibility, as put forward by Ecumenical Councils, has been accepted since the 4th century.

So if I found examples of council canon law along the same lines as Islamic law, you'd concede the point?

There are some such laws, but almost all of them only regulate the behavior of clergy.

I'll help you out here though, let me find the Rudder.

[Badb Catha]

You would answer persecution with genocide? That is immoral and unacceptable.

Lol no where did I say anything about genocide in this thread.

You said you hoped the nation should die.

[Conserative Morality]

There are some such laws, but almost all of them only regulate the behavior of clergy.

And? Islamic law only regulates the behavior of believers. Narrowed scope is not an excuse for non-application of divine law.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Lol no where did I say anything about genocide in this thread.

You said you hoped the nation should die.

Correct. Didn't say anything about genocide tho.

[United Muscovite Nations]

So if I found examples of council canon law along the same lines as Islamic law, you'd concede the point?

There are some such laws, but almost all of them only regulate the behavior of clergy.

I'll help you out here though, let me find the Rudder.

The pdf of the Rudder was taken down from OrthodoxWiki.

[Badb Catha]

You said you hoped the nation should die.

Correct. Didn't say anything about genocide tho.

True enough, but it is still wishing death upon others. Such immorality is the precise reason Islam is spiritually void and just gives further reason to prohibit it's practice outside of Islamic countries.

[United Muscovite Nations]

There are some such laws, but almost all of them only regulate the behavior of clergy.

And? Islamic law only regulates the behavior of believers. Narrowed scope is not an excuse for non-application of divine law.

Yeah, obviously, but that doesn't mean believers don't have to follow it, and it matters mainly because Islamic law commands loyalty to the Caliph.

[Conserative Morality]

There are some such laws, but almost all of them only regulate the behavior of clergy.

I'll help you out here though, let me find the Rudder.

The pdf of the Rudder was taken down from OrthodoxWiki.

Scoundrels. INFINITE INFORMATION IS THE RIGHT OF THE CHILDREN OF THE DIGITAL AGE

[Neutraligon]

Once again no it isn't. They typically have various reasons why certain laws should not be followed, or should be followed in different ways.

What other sect of Judaism allows the violation of the 613 commandments?

And once again what you are seeing as violation they are seeing as something else. Oh and most of them, since Jews tend not to kill people for working on the Sabbath.

[Conserative Morality]

Yeah, obviously, but that doesn't mean believers don't have to follow it, and it matters mainly because Islamic law commands loyalty to the Caliph.

*ultramontaignism intensifies*

So, let's narrow the scope - is there any room for loyal Catholic Christians in a secular state, then?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Correct. Didn't say anything about genocide tho.

True enough, but it is still wishing death upon others. Such immorality is the precise reason Islam is spiritually void and just gives further reason to prohibit it's practice outside of Islamic countries.

>Spiritually void
You've never read the Holy Qur'an have you? And yes, wishing death on someone who commits a heinous crime is not a bad thing. Are you against the death penalty?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Yeah, obviously, but that doesn't mean believers don't have to follow it, and it matters mainly because Islamic law commands loyalty to the Caliph.

*ultramontaignism intensifies*

So, let's narrow the scope - is there any room for loyal Catholic Christians in a secular state, then?

Frankly, I don't think so, I think anti-Catholic political arguments hold a lot of weight as long as the target of those arguments are devout Catholics with a firm understanding of Catholic doctrine.

[Old Tyrannia]

You respond to everything with these vague liberal soundbites that mean nothing and fail to advance any serious point against your opponents' arguments. Why not try actually defending your point of view properly?

You have made no serious argument. What is British culture? There is no homogenous British culture. What is fundamentally "British" today was not fifty years ago.

If you recall correctly I began by taking about England and English identity, and it was you who brought "British" culture into the conversation. Different parts of the UK have different identities and cultures, though they are united by a common history and by common institutions. As far as England goes, however, English common law, parliamentary government, and loyalty to the Crown are all essential elements of Englishness. It is plainly unacceptable for any minority group to form its own legal system and institutions separate from those of the state, because in doing so they are infringing upon the prerogative of the Crown and demonstrating that they do not consider themselves fully English but expect to be treated as a nation in their own right. There should only be one legal system in this country, for all citizens regardless of faith, and if anyone finds that they cannot properly follow their religion's requirements under these conditions then they are free to leave.

[Conserative Morality]

Frankly, I don't think so, I think anti-Catholic political arguments hold a lot of weight as long as the target of those arguments are devout Catholics with a firm understanding of Catholic doctrine.

>> when UMN is an enemy of rum and romanism

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

Yeah, obviously, but that doesn't mean believers don't have to follow it, and it matters mainly because Islamic law commands loyalty to the Caliph.

*ultramontaignism intensifies*

So, let's narrow the scope - is there any room for loyal Catholic Christians in a secular state, then?

Loyal to whom? The President?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You have made no serious argument. What is British culture? There is no homogenous British culture. What is fundamentally "British" today was not fifty years ago.

If you recall correctly I began by taking about England and English identity, and it was you who brought "British" culture into the conversation. Different parts of the UK have different identities and cultures, though they are united by a common history and by common institutions. As far as England goes, however, English common law, parliamentary government, and loyalty to the Crown are all essential elements of Englishness. It is plainly unacceptable for any minority group to form its own legal system and institutions separate from those of the state, because in doing so they are infringing upon the prerogative of the Crown and demonstrating that they do not consider themselves fully English but expect to be treated as a nation in their own right. There should only be one legal system in this country, for all citizens regardless of faith, and if anyone finds that they cannot properly follow their religion's requirements under these conditions then they are free to leave.

Maybe they do, just not to your liking.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Frankly, I don't think so, I think anti-Catholic political arguments hold a lot of weight as long as the target of those arguments are devout Catholics with a firm understanding of Catholic doctrine.

>> when UMN is an enemy of rum and romanism

You know it's true, CM, there's no theological reason in the Catholic Church for why the Pope isn't Emperor of the world, such an arrangement would be completely compatible with Catholic theology and is a symptom of their corruption. Same is true of Mormons and their President/Prophethood.

[Conserative Morality]

*ultramontaignism intensifies*

So, let's narrow the scope - is there any room for loyal Catholic Christians in a secular state, then?

Loyal to whom? The President?

To the Republic.

[Conserative Morality]

You know it's true, CM, there's no theological reason in the Catholic Church for why the Pope isn't Emperor of the world, such an arrangement would be completely compatible with Catholic theology and is a symptom of their corruption. Same is true of Mormons and their President/Prophethood.

Well, I am one of those folks who is happy to let folks practice their religion 'incorrectly' and not pass (too much) judgement so long as they practice loyalty to the nation correctly. =^)

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Oh and btw, according to Shari'ah, other religious group are supposed to follow their religion's laws - that is, if their religion has its own laws.

[The Man Who Shot Jiminy Cricket]

Loyal to whom? The President?

To the Republic.

Who is that? Congress?

[United Muscovite Nations]

You know it's true, CM, there's no theological reason in the Catholic Church for why the Pope isn't Emperor of the world, such an arrangement would be completely compatible with Catholic theology and is a symptom of their corruption. Same is true of Mormons and their President/Prophethood.

Well, I am one of those folks who is happy to let folks practice their religion 'incorrectly' and not pass (too much) judgement so long as they practice loyalty to the nation correctly. =^)

I don't because I think hypocrisy is really bad. If your religion mandates you do something, and you don't do it, you're just a bad follower of that religion, and I apply that to myself as well, which is why I say I'm a bad Christian.