The Islamic Discussion Thread ٤: It's Always Sunni In Arabia

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Welcome to literally every religion ever, may I offer you a drink?

The second the prophet of a religion dies, its followers will start arguing over the pettiest of shits the very day after, and thus means that the religion becomes...well, corrupt.

Especially when that prophet says "Yo. Do exactly as I do because I'm perfect and do everything like totally right".

>prophet dies
>"So uh, we'll elect X guy"
>"nah fam, we'll elect Y guy!"
>"Screw you! My guy is better!"
>Sunni-Shia rift.org

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Yeah, good luck with that.

A substantial percentage of the world's Muslim nations will tell you to piss off, and the other portion (I'm looking at places such as Iraq and Syria) can't even unite the various cultural/ethnic groups within their own nation, let alone unite all Muslims. I'm not even done talking about the non-Muslim minorities (Christians, Jews, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, etc...) within Muslim-majority nations that would get FURIOUS!

So that whole "United Islamic Caliphate" idea is a pipe dream that died with the Umayyads.

Muslims have a right to have their own State just like any other community. If the minorities don't like it, they can always seek asylum in the West, I'm sure Trump will be glad to welcome them with a red carpet.

Yeah... no. You don't have a right to a state. You can't just persecute minorities who were already living there just because you want to further your own goals. You're being just as imperialist as any other empire widely deplored.

[United States of Oceania]

Muslims have a right to have their own State just like any other community. If the minorities don't like it, they can always seek asylum in the West, I'm sure Trump will be glad to welcome them with a red carpet.

Yeah... no. You don't have a right to a state. You can't just persecute minorities who were already living there just because you want to further your own goals. You're being just as imperialist as any other empire widely deplored.

Jews and Christians would have the right to practice their religion freely under an Islamic state

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Yeah... no. You don't have a right to a state. You can't just persecute minorities who were already living there just because you want to further your own goals. You're being just as imperialist as any other empire widely deplored.

Jews and Christians would have the right to practice their religion freely under an Islamic state

And what about non-Abrahamic religions like Hinduism, Buddhism and Sikhism?

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Yeah... no. You don't have a right to a state. You can't just persecute minorities who were already living there just because you want to further your own goals. You're being just as imperialist as any other empire widely deplored.

Jews and Christians would have the right to worship their religion freely under an Islamic state

And what about... Sikhs, Hindus, Semitic Pagans, Buddhists, followers Tengri, Eastern Animists / Shamanists, African Fetishist religions, Atheists, Deists, etc. I feel like those may not be so welcome in your nice and pretty state.

[Pilarcraft]

Yeah, good luck with that.

A substantial percentage of the world's Muslim nations will tell you to piss off, and the other portion (I'm looking at places such as Iraq and Syria) can't even unite the various cultural/ethnic groups within their own nation, let alone unite all Muslims. I'm not even done talking about the non-Muslim minorities (Christians, Jews, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, etc...) within Muslim-majority nations that would get FURIOUS!

So that whole "United Islamic Caliphate" idea is a pipe dream that died with the Umayyads.

Muslims have a right to have their own State just like any other community. If the minorities don't like it, they can always seek asylum in the West, I'm sure Trump will be glad to welcome them with a red carpet.

No. Muslims have as much a right to form a state ANYWHERE in the world as other religious groups do. Pieces of Land belong to Nationalities, not Religious groups.

[Pilarcraft]

Jews and Christians would have the right to worship their religion freely under an Islamic state

And what about... Sikhs, Hindus, Semitic Pagans, Buddhists, followers Tengri, Eastern Animists / Shamanists, African Fetishist religions, Atheists, Deists, etc. I feel like those may not be so welcome in your nice and pretty state.

Fun fact. The aforementioned Jews and Christians would also not have the right to worship freely. They'd be taxed beyond relief, institutionally mistreated by the government (that... through the religion often calls for their extermination, etc.). Just like Jews in literally every single Islamic Country ever.

[Aulus Maximus]

Oh, so a prayer takes about three to four minutes?

It's about the same span of time as a cigarette break or a bathroom break, so if one retires to pray for a few minutes and comes back, it's not intrusive whatsoever, and thus literally nobody will mind you retiring to pray (I mean, I tolerate people who retire every 30 minutes to have a smoke, I might as well have tolerance for a Muslim taking a few minutes to pray about twice in an average work shift).

Basically yes. It takes three to four minutes on average and if you speed it up then around two minutes or so. And the prayer times (during worktime, assuming a nine to five shift) would be at the appendix of the sun and when the shadow of an object is the length of a shadow in the afternoon. And during sunset in the winter. But the first two can be combined asking around eight minutes time.

So now that there are no caliphs and there are unlikely to be any, what's your respective viewpoints for the future leadership of Islam?

Decentralized communities. I'm of opinion that, practically speaking, a secular state with freedom for religious communities to form is the best option. That'd be that communities can buy land from the government to start their own commune there where they can excercise their religious law (to an extent). Living in said area equals voluntary subscription to said law.

I don't think a Caliph is needed. Religious leaders of a community, who can be appointed by the people or something else, can do that job.

[United States of Oceania]

Jews and Christians would have the right to worship their religion freely under an Islamic state

And what about... Sikhs, Hindus, Semitic Pagans, Buddhists, followers Tengri, Eastern Animists / Shamanists, African Fetishist religions, Atheists, Deists, etc. I feel like those may not be so welcome in your nice and pretty state.

They can seek asylum in the West.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Yeah... no. You don't have a right to a state. You can't just persecute minorities who were already living there just because you want to further your own goals. You're being just as imperialist as any other empire widely deplored.

Jews and Christians would have the right to practice their religion freely under an Islamic state

Lol the Pact of Umar disagrees. The Christians couldn't build new churches, rebuild destroyed churches, display crosses, ring bells loudly to call for prayer, forbidden from displaying their religion publicly (like publicly possessing a crucifix), Christians had to give up their seats for Muslims (sort of reminds you of segregation in the US with buses), wear certain clothing/sashes as an identifier (sort of reminds you of the armbands that Nazis made the Jews wear), couldn't own any weapons, and must have shorter houses. I'm sure that there's more. This is just what I remember.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

And what about... Sikhs, Hindus, Semitic Pagans, Buddhists, followers Tengri, Eastern Animists / Shamanists, African Fetishist religions, Atheists, Deists, etc. I feel like those may not be so welcome in your nice and pretty state.

They can seek asylum in the West.

And what if the West doesn't take them? You don't care about them at all, do you?

[Aulus Maximus]

And what about... Sikhs, Hindus, Semitic Pagans, Buddhists, followers Tengri, Eastern Animists / Shamanists, African Fetishist religions, Atheists, Deists, etc. I feel like those may not be so welcome in your nice and pretty state.

Fun fact. The aforementioned Jews and Christians would also not have the right to worship freely. They'd be taxed beyond relief, institutionally mistreated by the government (that... through the religion often calls for their extermination, etc.). Just like Jews in literally every single Islamic Country ever.

Except the fact that Jews lived for a long time in the Ottoman Empire and actually fled to there due to said state being most tolerant towards the Jews. Only during the 19th century did this change.

[United States of Oceania]

They can seek asylum in the West.

And what if the Wets doesn't take them? You don't care about them at all, do you?

The West always boasts about being the protector of religious freedom and tolerance, I'm sure they will accept them.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

And what about... Sikhs, Hindus, Semitic Pagans, Buddhists, followers Tengri, Eastern Animists / Shamanists, African Fetishist religions, Atheists, Deists, etc. I feel like those may not be so welcome in your nice and pretty state.

They can seek asylum in the West.

And what if they refuse to leave?

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

And what about... Sikhs, Hindus, Semitic Pagans, Buddhists, followers Tengri, Eastern Animists / Shamanists, African Fetishist religions, Atheists, Deists, etc. I feel like those may not be so welcome in your nice and pretty state.

They can seek asylum in the West.

Yeah... no. You're not being very reasonable. All you're doing is proving the right's fears of what Muslims wish to do to their countries. Especially in places like Burma where there are political movements of Buddhists murdering Muslims for this exact reason, because they fear they'll be kicked out of their own country.

[United States of Oceania]

They can seek asylum in the West.

And what if they refuse to leave?

We put them in planes by force.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

And what if the Wets doesn't take them? You don't care about them at all, do you?

The West always boasts about being the protector of religious freedom and tolerance, I'm sure they will accept them.

I didn't ask that. You're evading.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

And what if they refuse to leave?

We put them in planes by force.

And if they refuse to leave, just shoot them all or put them in special showers, right?

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

And what if they refuse to leave?

We put them in planes by force.

Hue hue, you're trying not to say how much you wish to pull a backwards Spanish inquisition aren't you?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

And what if they refuse to leave?

We put them in planes by force.

Do you want armed resistance groups and rampant Islamophobia?

Because this is the perfect recipe for that.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

We put them in planes by force.

And if they refuse to leave, just shoot them all or put them in special showers, right?

Hey, comparing people to Hitler just makes you loose the argument. Please refrain.

[Pilarcraft]

Fun fact. The aforementioned Jews and Christians would also not have the right to worship freely. They'd be taxed beyond relief, institutionally mistreated by the government (that... through the religion often calls for their extermination, etc.). Just like Jews in literally every single Islamic Country ever.

Except the fact that Jews lived for a long time in the Ottoman Empire and actually fled to there due to said state being most tolerant towards the Jews. Only during the 19th century did this change.

Suggesting The Ottoman Empire, especially After Suleiman the Lawful, was theocratic in any way other than the name. (You want to see how Jews get treated under actual Islamic Governments? See Jews in Abbasid, Umawid, and Rashidun Caliphates. It's not pretty.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

We put them in planes by force.

Do you want armed resistance groups and rampant Islamophobia?

Because this is the perfect recipe for that.

Tbh, I think Oceania is just an agent provocateur at this point. It's too ridiculous to take seriously.

[Pilarcraft]

And if they refuse to leave, just shoot them all or put them in special showers, right?

Hey, comparing people to Hitler just makes you loose the argument. Please refrain.

The Idea of a state based on anything other than civic nationality is by default something that will inevitably lead to being compared to Hitler though. Because Non-Nation States are necessarily going to do that. Some Nation-states too.

[Saxony-Brandenburg]

Do you want armed resistance groups and rampant Islamophobia?

Because this is the perfect recipe for that.

Tbh, I think Oceania is just an agent provocateur at this point. It's too ridiculous to take seriously.

I think you may be onto something...